Funny thing about black and white. You mix it together and you get gray. And it doesn't matter how much white you try and put back in, you're never gonna get anything but gray.

Lilah ,'Destiny'


Premium Cable: The Cursing Costs Extra

[NAFDA] A thread for the discussion of all original programming on HBO, Showtime, Starz and other premium channels.

This is NOT a general TV discussion thread.


le nubian - May 09, 2014 1:37:02 pm PDT #5820 of 7329
"And to be clear, I am the hell. And the high water."

note: I am not trying to contradict your points. I haven't read the books, so I am trying to suss out GRRM's larger themes and if his point is that nearly all characters have fatal flaws and have weaknesses being leaders.

I personally don't care about spoilers FYI. I am still barely hanging on with all the characters but it is better than S1.


-t - May 09, 2014 1:52:37 pm PDT #5821 of 7329
I am a woman of various inclinations and only some of the time are they to burn everything down in frustration

Oh, I'm just spouting ideas as they occur to me, I'm not attached any of my answers. It's an interesting question.


DebetEsse - May 09, 2014 4:55:29 pm PDT #5822 of 7329
Woe to the fucking wicked.

Also, I think he's the kind of guy who is absolutely certain he will not get caught.

This. Also he was the money guy, and financed everything by loans, which, I think, says a lot about him. It also meant that he was instrumental in ensuring that everything went to shit on two fronts.

I do think his "chaos is a ladder" quote is sort of his mission statement.

I half wonder if, until the Red Wedding, he wasn't still hoping to get a shot at Catelyn.


-t - May 09, 2014 7:03:24 pm PDT #5823 of 7329
I am a woman of various inclinations and only some of the time are they to burn everything down in frustration

Oh, I'm sure he was.


erin_obscure - May 09, 2014 8:47:45 pm PDT #5824 of 7329
Occasionally I’m callous and strange

I think of LittleFinger as the ultimate "player" in the game for control of Westeros (Varys is also very high in the rankings). His particular brand of brilliance is being entirely behind the scenes and very efficiently covering up his involvement (e.g. killing Dondas, the only person outside the Eyrie who could have implicated him in Sansa's disappearance.)

My calculation would be that he wants Sansa for 2 reasons: 1) Lust. Nostalgia. Desire. She reminds him of Catelyn. 2) As far as folks in King's Landing know, she is the sole living Stark heir (Arya, Bran and Rickon and being leaves in the wind ATM). Same reason Tywin made Tyrion marry her: there's a reasonable expectation that her husband could make a valid claim to ruling The North with the support of all the Stark bannermen. While we may all hope that she develops a backbone and might make a claim to her own power...ain't no evidence to back that up. The girl goes where she is told, does what she is told to do, marries whoever is put before her at the altar. Hella convenient pawn.


Jessica - May 10, 2014 4:56:55 am PDT #5825 of 7329
And then Ortus came and said "It's Ortin' time" and they all Orted off into the sunset

While we may all hope that she develops a backbone and might make a claim to her own power...ain't no evidence to back that up.

I think there's excellent evidence to show that if she did stand up for herself and try to claim power, her head would be on display in front of the castle gates next to her father's. Being a pawn right now is the smartest game she could play.


-t - May 10, 2014 5:02:59 am PDT #5826 of 7329
I am a woman of various inclinations and only some of the time are they to burn everything down in frustration

She is doing an excellent job of staying alive, which is not exactly the Stark's strong suit.


Amy - May 10, 2014 5:11:24 am PDT #5827 of 7329
Because books.

I agree. Sansa learned pretty quickly how to survive, and that's not nothing in Westeros. Her little moments of rebellion and strength are pretty quiet, but they're there -- even handing Tyrion the cup at the wedding was something a spoiled or stupid "pawn" wouldn't have done.


§ ita § - May 10, 2014 7:09:27 am PDT #5828 of 7329
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

GRRM gave Sansa an amazing turnaround. That might be the thing I like most about the series--how snottily impractical and annoying she was at the start, and how incredibly sympathetic she is now, having had her every dream destroyed and struggling through immense emotional distress.

None of the surviving Starks have it easy, but I think she's been in the most constant danger and had the most emotional development of all of them (although Jon Snow might no longer know absolutely nothing, I put Bran second--Arya is kind of stalling with her quest for vengeance--a lot is happening to her, but I don't feel she's grown up the same way as either of them--she just started out a fan favourite).


Tom Scola - May 11, 2014 5:25:59 pm PDT #5829 of 7329
Remember that the frontier of the Rebellion is everywhere. And even the smallest act of insurrection pushes our lines forward.

Yay, Braavos.

Angry Tyrion is pretty fucking hard core.