And now people are complaining that Jaime and Cersei are now ruined
Because...their love was so pure before?
River: You're not right, Early. You're not righteous. You've got issues. Early: No. Oh, yes, I could have that. You might have me figured out, then. Good job. I'm not 100%.
'Objects In Space'
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Jessica - Apr 22, 2014 5:26:11 am PDT #5704 of 7329
And then Ortus came and said "It's Ortin' time" and they all Orted off into the sunset
§ ita § - Apr 22, 2014 6:15:53 am PDT #5705 of 7329
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
Because...their love was so pure before?
Exactly. Now they're damaged. I feel like wandering around replying to everything in IO9 with "Psst! Khal/Dany?"
Jessica - Apr 22, 2014 6:30:55 am PDT #5706 of 7329
And then Ortus came and said "It's Ortin' time" and they all Orted off into the sunset
"Psst! Khal/Dany?"
Now THAT was the show change that pissed me off - in the book, it is very explicitly Not Rape on their wedding night. He asks "No?" and she says "Yes." Granted, she is still 14 years old at that point, but she at least says yes.
§ ita § - Apr 22, 2014 6:50:45 am PDT #5707 of 7329
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
Is it recency why this seems to have a bigger response than Khal/Dany? It was not such a thing then, was it? Why wouldn't it be? He was a savage? It was expected? Show hadn't spent time nicey nicing him? It's not a betrayal of a previous relationship?
eta: GRRM's response: [link]
DebetEsse - Apr 22, 2014 6:51:09 am PDT #5708 of 7329
Woe to the fucking wicked.
It's not even the first time Cersei's been raped (Thank you, Robert.). I think, especially paired with the scene immediately before, where Tommen goes off with Tywin, it serves quite well to isolate Cersei. She's running real low on allies, at this point.
Jessica - Apr 22, 2014 6:51:26 am PDT #5709 of 7329
And then Ortus came and said "It's Ortin' time" and they all Orted off into the sunset
I think maybe the show wasn't as big a deal at that point? I honestly don't know.
§ ita § - Apr 22, 2014 6:58:21 am PDT #5710 of 7329
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
I feel like HBO's done a great job of making it a big deal from the start (says a non-reader, or at least one who *tried* and failed during the first book). But it's definitely a bigger deal now.
I doubt many people will stop watching because of it, and who knows--the noise may attract new viewers.
Not my co-worker, though. He doesn't watch TV, and was trying to tell me about a show popular amongst his friends "Something about a chair?" It was quite endearing coming from a hip (but not ster) thirtysomething.
le nubian - Apr 22, 2014 6:59:46 am PDT #5711 of 7329
"And to be clear, I am the hell. And the high water."
Is it recency why this seems to have a bigger response than Khal/Dany
Rape culture 101 I think. Audience LIKES Jamie and don't want to think this character could do something like that.
Of course the savage man would do that on his wedding night.
§ ita § - Apr 22, 2014 7:10:10 am PDT #5712 of 7329
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
I thought Amanda Marcotte's take on the episode was exactly on point: [link]
Having finally read it, I think it's absolutely not. I don't think you can flatly diagnose assholishness of people because they enjoyed seeing a despised character get narrative comeuppance (he's not effectively a child), and "it puts you in a position to do exactly what you just spent the last hour judging others over" is nothing if not an exaggeration. For a start, we haven't done anything or been reacting to real people, as they all have, in universe.
“You are all terrible people, sitting there on your couch, enjoying the sight of a child dying a painful death.”
Yeah, no.
tommyrot - Apr 22, 2014 7:58:00 am PDT #5713 of 7329
Sir, it's not an offence to let your cat eat your bacon. Okay? And we don't arrest cats, I'm very sorry.
“You are all terrible people, sitting there on your couch, enjoying the sight of a child dying a painful death.”
That bugged me too. I wasn't enjoying his death; I was transfixed, thinking what a terrible way to die that would be. Based on limited experience, choking/not being able to breath is a very terrifying feeling.