you may find amusing the case of Manuel Puig, who wrote several novels entirely in dialogue. He never specified who was talking, and never described what they were doing; you could only tell something had happened when one of the speakers mentioned it. You got to know these people solely by their words to each other.

That sounds kind of neat, but I suspect I couldn't make it through five pages of that without throwing it across the room in irritation.

I'd love to see Deb or Connie take on the Illuminati

She lumped me in with Deb. I love Teppy.

Well, while you have different writing styles, those styles both just sing. If it makes any sense, your writing doesn't make me aware that you're *writing* -- like "LOOK! I WILL NOW USE A METAPHOR TO POINT OUT THE ANGUISH THAT OUR PROTAGONIST IS IN!" It's much more like I'm getting pure story downloaded directly into my brain.

I hope that makes sense, because it's a total compliment.

Plus, on the Illuminati topic -- you and Deb just handle intricate, shadowy, often creepy topics very well, each in your own way.

(pimp) Teppy, have you read the Illuminai Trilogy? Because if you haven't, it makes the perfect antidote for Dan Brown.

And Teppy does nothing to make love her any less. I think I'll bookmark that post.

The trilogy - Wilson and Shea's Illuminati trilogy, that is - is a corking fun read in my world.

Illuminatus! (the exclamation point being part of the title). God, I love those books. POV, characters, location, and time can change mid-paragraph, chronology is fluid, imagery is acid-washed, and my brain is always breathless after I read it. I should have bought the "leather"-bound reissue that came out a few years ago, because my paperbound is falling apart. Hail Eris.

That dialogue block you quoted? Would lose me by line five, with or without "he said" or "she said". For me, it's just two people talking. There's no context; there's no setting. What are they doing? Is he a finger-tapper? Is she fidgeting, or playing with her jewelry? Are they meeting each other's eyes?

Exactly -- that was my point. "He said" and "she said" would at least save me from needing to count back to figure out who said what, but that's only a modest improvement compared to what you could do with "he smirked" or "she paced the room, drawing her shawl closer around her." Or whatever.

Here's honorh's Buffy-Angel Fanfic University on the subject:

Sure enough, in less than a minute, ‘Buffy’ and ‘Angel’ had become identical, androgynous figures of medium height, with longish, light brown hair and genderless clothing. Alix froze the two, then looked toward the rows of seats. “So, who called that out? You? Okay, next time raise your hand and wait to be recognized. But, since you were the first to catch it, maybe you can tell me what caused it.”

“I’m thinking …” It was MegaSilver, speaking slowly, but as if still analyzing rather than from uncertainty. “I’m thinking that might be because there was no ‘he said, she said’ at all.”

Alix nodded, smiling. “Very, very good. He’s hit it dead-center, boys and girls. This is what happens if you have a conversation between two people without any internal tags to let the reader keep track of who’s speaking. After awhile, you can’t tell them apart. And keep in mind, the same thing can happen with two persons of the same gender — two women, let’s say — even if you do include vocal attributions; then it’s ‘she said, she said’ and you still don’t know which is which. So, use a name every now and then, or interrupt the speech with some action within the paragraph to show who’s doing the talking.”

Teppy, have you read the Illuminai Trilogy? Because if you haven't, it makes the perfect antidote for Dan Brown.

I have not, but I'm going to have to look into them -- they look very intriguing.

Lyra, she's talking good basic technique, there, but she's still missing the point as I see it. Which is: why, precisely, is this piece being written? The importance is in the story, the journey. Dicking with the technique will only enhance or delete if there's a story to tell. Otherwise, the writer - be it fiction, fic, drama, poetry, whatever - is just masturbating, either intellectually or emotionally. And I feel, really strongly, that writing shouldn't be about jerking off. It should be about belly-bumping, full on.

If there's a story, illustrate it. Tell the story by showing what happens. And for that to happen, there needs to be more than technical tricks; there needs to be characterisation, and the road itself, and the destination.

God, I suck at explaining why I believe this stuff. It's why I'm a shitty teacher.

Yeah, Tep, I spent the whole time looking at a page and then looking at the back and thinking "Want *that* book. This one stinks. Want the book this back is for." I wrote a writer friend that weekend and whinged about it.

About how I don't have a best-seller but can so "take" him. Etc.Etc. And he was no help at all because he told me to do it already or shut up. And whatever gave me the idea life was a meritocracy anyway?

"My overwhelming sense of social justice," I replied.

He refused to feel sorry for me anyway. Bastard.

Do they really say that? Good grief. Again, glad I don't read the things.

I don't think they mean by compulsion what I mean by compulsion. It smells as if they're trying to convince themselves (or us) that it's some kind of Higher Calling, or something.

I think part of it is the Higher Calling thing, but there's some sound advice hidden in there along the lines of, "Writing is hard work, the industry is capricious and will break your heart, so unless you want this badly indeed, find a different line of work." The problem comes in where so many of the advice books define wanting it badly as being driven to write every day, no matter what.

Writing advice books have been helpful for me since I got to the point where I realized there are as many ways to write as there are writers. So now I'm good at pulling out what's useful to me and discarding the rest. I just wish RWA circles weren't so hung up on Debra Dixon's Goal, Motivation and Conflict, because its techniques are among the ones that don't work for me, so it's a bore to be asked "What's your GMC?" every time I describe a scene I'm working on.

I have nothing to say about adverbs or "he saids" that adds anything to this conversation.

I did check back through some of my old writing to see if I was guilty, because I do have a tendency not to bother with tagging dialog. But both projects I looked at had no dialog at all at the point I'd left them, so, nevermind.

Anyway, instead I'm going to post a slightly reworked version of the song I'm on now. Added a third verse, as per deb, and it needed it. I couldn't get away from starting and ending, so I moved some stuff around and cut a bit. See if it's any better.

cop sunglasses

your smile is just like cop sunglasses, yes that is
what your smile is just like, cop sunglasses, yes
your smile is just like cop sunglasses, yes, that is
what your smile is just like

i know i'm in for trouble
when i see that smile start to bubble
up i go ahead and blow the hatches
out i float the tanks 'cause that smile is matchless

yes, your smile is just like cop sunglasses, yes that is
what your smile is just like, it's like cop sunglasses
your smile is just like cop sunglasses, yes, that is
what your smile is just like

you lay it out like ammunition
when things get cagey or your reputation's
down on the line then that smile clicks
in place on your face like you flicked a switch

oh, you think you've got your bases covered
all your emotion safely shuttered
behind that smile like missile silos
under all that rubble i guess you know i know

that your smile is just like cop sunglasses, yes that is
what your smile is just like