Any recommendations?

Without knowing specifics.... maybe something by Paul Thomas or Candida Royale. Places like Good Vibrations usuallly identify movies that are "for couples" and/or directed by women, which are generally less, um, clinical in their focus.

Maybe that's not the way Hec meant to use it, but that is the dictionary definition, and how the word pings me when I see it.

That's probably too strong for my distinction. Which I am belatedly realizing is just the mufaletta kerfuffle in disguise.

To sum: muffalletta minus olives equals cheeseburger minus cheese. A cheeseburger without cheese is by definition a hamburger. A muffaletta without olives is by definition a hoagie. (Not to restart the whole argument, I'm just summarizing what my argument was then.)

So I'm arguing that "kink" by definition requires an element of "bentness" to it. That it has something to do with the individual's relationship to their own sexuality, and that happens within a larger cultural notion of what's normative. Something which is "kinked" or "bent" is not broken, however, so it may often fall short of pathology.

It is less arguable that all sexual practices which deviate from cultural norms require a core fucked-upedness. Though I tend to think that is probably true in most instances.

On a completely different topic, and belatedly Ann Richards awesome Democratic Convention Keynote speech in 1988. Both transcript and Quicktime audio.

I’m a grandmother now. And I have one nearly perfect granddaughter named Lily. And when I hold that grandbaby, I feel the continuity of life that unites us, that binds generation to generation, that ties us with each other. And sometimes I spread that Baptist pallet out on the floor, and Lily and I roll a ball back and forth. And I think of all the families like mine, like the one in Lorena, Texas, like the ones that nurture children all across America. And as I look at Lily, I know that it is within families that we learn both the need to respect individual human dignity and to work together for our common good. Within our families, within our nation, it is the same.

And as I sit there, I wonder if she’ll ever grasp the changes I’ve seen in my life -- if she’ll ever believe that there was a time when blacks could not drink from public water fountains, when Hispanic children were punished for speaking Spanish in the public schools, and women couldn’t vote.

I think of all the political fights I’ve fought, and all the compromises I’ve had to accept as part payment. And I think of all the small victories that have added up to national triumphs and all the things that would never have happened and all the people who would’ve been left behind if we had not reasoned and fought and won those battles together. And I will tell Lily that those triumphs were Democratic Party triumphs.

It is less arguable that all sexual practices which deviate from cultural norms require a core fucked-upedness. Though I tend to think that is probably true in most instances.

Really? I mean, oral sex was considered quite outside of cultural norms, say, four decades ago, but NSM now. I think most people who engaged in oral sex 40 years ago were not fucked-up, just more... open minded. Or do you think your above statement is more true now than then?

I mean, oral sex was considered quite outside of cultural norms, say, four decades ago, but NSM now.

Yeah but blowjobs aren't kinky anymore.

No, but you're right, I need to make a distinction between behavior which is merely outside the cultural commonplace, and that which is driven by compulsion.

But that's tricky since all sex tends to have some compelling drive and almost all fetishes have a cultural component.

I think the question may be what you mean by "fucked up." What I think Hec is trying to say is that "kinky" really means "doing or wanting something different from most people." And tommyrot correctly points out that the definition changes by time and place.

Not to mention that the Party Line may be very different from what people actually do. Look at Victorian England, where a Party Line of "don't talk about it, and don't do it outside marriage" coexisted with a thriving porn trade (see Steven Marcus' The Other Victorians) and large numbers of prostitutes.

As a working definition, I think Hec is in the neighborhood. The problem is that "kinky" is one of those concepts that may be impossible to define outside the personal level. Or quips like, "Kinky involves a feather; perverted involves the whole chicken."

That's not really what I'm saying. I'm arguing that having a healthy attitude toward sex (which I am attributing to the Swedes without any proof) precludes kinkiness. Kinkiness requires some pathology.

To resolve the different views on this, it probably would be useful to distinguish between an interest in unusual sexual practices and a dependence on unusual sexual practices. What you find in Sweden (and other Nordic countries and the Netherlands) is unusually high levels of self-reported satisfaction with ordinary sexual practices. People like their vanilla sex. If works for them. So saying that people who are happy with vanilla sex are Swedish-like makes some sense.

That doesn't mean that people in those cultures aren't interested in non-vanilla sex. They are interested. But people who find the most ordinary sexual practices to be highly satisfying are are less likely to be dependent on unusual sexual practices in order to achieve sexual gratification. They might sample them, but they are less likely to get stuck with one specific pattern.

To look for GA spoilers or to not look for GA spoilers??

Wishing I had more of asample so I could decide where I stood, so to speak. Although there is a real issue in the disability community in re devotee-ism. Which some people condemn completely, esp. abuse survivors. But I think it could be okay to have sex with a crip devotee as long as "I could do anything I want to you and you can't get away!" isn't the sole basis of our relationship. But I've never actually met somebody who told me that, despite hearing they are as common as dirt.

What you find in Sweden (and other Nordic countries and the Netherlands) is unusually high levels of self-reported satisfaction with ordinary sexual practices. People like their vanilla sex. If works for them. So saying that people who are happy with vanilla sex are Swedish-like makes some sense.

Right, France has one of the highest sexual-satisfaction rates in Europe with heterosexual couples reporting vaginal penetration 98% of the time and a high disapproval (or denial) of masturbation.

ETA: Between this and Movies, I am all about the French fucking today.