Oh sweet Jesus. Crap.

Pretty much my feeling as well.

So, as soon as Emily gets out of the shower and dressed, we're going to go to brunch, and I'm going to get very drunk on mimosas.

I'm sorry, vw. That's awful.

{{{Spidra}}}

((((Spidra))))

((((vw))))

Yep. Sounds like new church time.

I'm so sorry you have to find a new one, but I'm so proud of you for following your heart and walking out. The world of faith needs more VWs.

Have good mimosas.

Yeek, vw! I'm also proud of you for feeling bothered enough by that to wonder whether your current church is the right community for you. Yay, you!

Aw, thanks guys. I've got it easy. Being unemployed means I can be sick at my leisure. I just have to be well by the time my job interview rolls around on Tuesday.

I'm so sorry you have to find a new one, but I'm so proud of you for following your heart and walking out. The world of faith needs more VWs.

Have good mimosas.

I am up Up And Agronk. But I'm up. And I have a list. Fear me and my list.

[eta: a clue on ie/ei notions]

Headache needs to go away.

vw - glad you walked out.

Sending Spidra interview~ma for Tuesday.

I need to make a list, but right now I am being pulled in by baseball and the extreme need to do nothing.

Ack. It's long and complicated, but has to do with a woman giving her testimony about how she was cured from "lesbianism."

See Cindy walk out of every (attendance mandatory) college Chapel Service that introduced the subject of abortion.

From the church-member point of view, it's a little different for me, now, vw.

I'm able to stay, in part because I voluntarily joined, and I feel a literal connection where the term 'member of the body' is more of actual analysis than pretty metaphor (although sometimes I'm convinced I'm just a kidney stone, and other times, I feel like I'm the urinary tract being assaulted by same).

There have been things preached from our pulpit with which I disagree, but because our church is congregationally governed, and because our minister is open to dissenting views (which doesn't mean he'll be swayed, but he will always listen openly, and won't try to discipline me or drive me out of the church for my pet heterodoxies) I can stay, comfortably. Also, where he preaches things with which I disagree, he hasn't been hateful. It has been obvious to me that he is speaking out of love, even when I think he's wrong.

I don't know what your church's position is on disagreement over peripherals, but remember, even if your church doesn't know it, sex issues are peripherals. They are not core doctrine. The Apostles' Creed is the stuff, vw. The rest has been causing differences of opinion since Peter and Paul had it out at the Jerusalem Council.

You'd think the way some people dwell on it, sex is the only thing that matters, but when I read the scripture, and I see all the ways in which sex came into play in the lives of people who are spoken of as friends of God, I cannot come to any other conclusion that that it is a peripheral.

If you otherwise love your church, and if they'll let you dissent honestly (but lovingly), you might not want to leave, or at least--you might want to talk to your pastor, as part of your decision making process. I'm convinced I am never going to find a church where I agree with everyone (or even just with the pastors) on every doctrinal point, on this side of the divide. Often that will be because I am wrong or still learning, but there's a chance that sometimes I will be correct. Becoming part of a church is a lot like being married (members of the body::two become one flesh). Running at the first sign of disagreement or trouble isn't going to put either you, or them, in a position where growth is possible.

I know your church history overall has been far more difficult for you, than mine has been for me (although I've had pain; it doesn't compare) so I can't know all of what you're feeling, right now. If this is more of a last-straw situation between you and your church, please forget I've said anything. I'm only piping up here, because my impression has been that you've had a generally good experience with your church, up until now, and that it is a healthy church. And I'm wondering if they don't need to hear what you have to say on this issue.

Tony and Peg Campolo gave a wonderful talk on how Christians need to handle their differences of opinion on sex-related issues. I don't know which of them is right. I know one of them is though because there is so much love in what they both say. There's so very much love, that really, they're both more right than wrong in any way that truly matters. Even where I disagree with either of them, I whole-heartedly affirm how they've handled the subject.

Their discussion is compelling, because they disagree with one another (and have been married to each other for yonks). It might prove a resource for you, whether you stay or go. I don't know all the answers on this stuff, myself, but I know every time I read this, I cry: [link]

GayChristian.net also has two opposing essays, both written by Gay Christian men, and they too make me cry.

Justin: [link] (continued...)