Holy cats!

You know how sometimes something on Snopes is true?

[link]

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I could just hear the Jaws music...

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Probe a Jewish person's thought process / Go far enough back in a Wiccan's thought process, / In an atheist's reasoning for his moral judgment,

Having been each of these at more than one point in my life, I can say with absolute certainty that my core moral values have never stemmed from my religious beliefs, ever. My core moral values are it, they're as deep as it goes. There's nothing more to probe, period, the end.

I don't know why you don't believe me and I honestly don't care. But the statements you are making about what you appear to think are universal aspects of human nature are demonstrably not as universal as you think.

You even say it yourself, here:

Different reasons and different rationalizations (and even different moral positions themselves) appeal to different people for any number of reasons.

Those reasons (and I think rationalizations is a far more accurate word) may include religion, may include the big "why are we here" questions, or they may not. In my case, they do not, and never have.

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Having been each of these at more than one point in my life, I can say with absolute certainty that my core moral values have never stemmed from my religious beliefs, ever. My core moral values are it, they're as deep as it goes. There's nothing more to probe, period, the end.

But you weren't raised in a sealed jar. They come from somewhere and, likely as not, your parents and their moral/religious beliefs/reasoning.

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They come from somewhere and, likely as not, your parents and their moral/religious beliefs.

By that logic, my Gaia worship is a direct result of my parents' firm Methodist beliefs and my upbringing therein. A conclusion that would probably surprise them (and John Wesley, for that matter).

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And I realize no one cares about this conversation any longer, which is the nature of Natter, but there we go.

I actually am fascinated by this conversation, because (and I hope this doesn't sound rude) it lets me peek inside the brain of someone I know to be Christian and a good, rational, person. Sometimes, because the pattern of thought where the deepest part of belief comes from another power is so alien to me, I feel like all religious people are really bluffing and don't really believe. But I see that not only is that belief true i, but it is so deeply a part of a true believe that it is inconcieveable that someone would think like me-- sort of the opposite of how I think.

Did this make any sense?

Although I believe in some sort of supernatural power, the sureness of my morals is more the foundation of that belief (off to the side, so to speak) than the result of it.

For example, I would say that my moral code, boiled down, would be:

Don't hurt people.

(sub-code Work hard. Help others. Stay out of other people's business)

So, when I make a judgement, on something- that is my question-- does it hurt someone? Of course it is not always that clear-- sometimes I have to weigh one hurt against another-- but take the death penalty-- I am against it. It kills someone. I am against the killer, but becoming killers ourselves is not the way to go.

Anyway, my point is-- nowhere in my little thought process did I consider God or any supernatural belief, nor, really, do I feel my lack of practical religious bent make any differance in my judgement.

Thank you, Cindy for bringing this back, and please let me know if I am misrepresenting what I think you said.

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Although I believe in some sort of supernatural power, the sureness of my morals is more the foundation of that belief (off to the side, so to speak) than the result of it.

I don't disagree with this, Sophia. That's what I was trying to say when I said I was glad ita pointed out what billytea said. I can hardly see anyone believing in a religion that used a moral framework that was in total opposition to his own (lying is good; murder is good; kindness is bad).

Anyway, my point is-- nowhere in my little thought process did I consider God or any supernatural belief, nor, really, do I feel my lack of practical religious bent make any differance in my judgement.

I don't think lack of practical religious bent makes a different in someone's moral judgment, either. I hope that was clear. I know far too many moral people of either no religion, other religions, or who only have less-defined beliefs about that kind of stuff, to think otherwise. In other words, when a religious person says "You can't be a moral person if you are not religious," I know that's incorrect.

Thank you, Cindy for bringing this back, and please let me know if I am misrepresenting what I think you said.

Thank you, Sophia. I don't think you misrepresented it. I guess my definition of world view just includes all of it. World view is probably my '42'. When I use the term, I mean how you look at everything from morals, to your place in the universe, your place in relation to all the other creatures we know about (all other humans, animals, and the environment) and for those who believe in some sort of supernatural, that goes in there, too.

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In other words, when a religious person says "You can be a moral person if you are not religious," I know that's incorrect.

You left out a "not" there, right?

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"You can be a moral person if you are not religious," I know that's incorrect.

head explodes

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I left out a huge NOT there. What I meant to write was, "When a religious person says, 'You CAN'T be a moral person if you are not religious', I know that's incorrect."

Sheeeeesh. Holy wars have started over less. Thank developers for the edit function.

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