I completely couldn't wrap my brain around steampunk till I saw a movie that did it. For some reason, the visual clicked for me.

As for the oppressiveness of moderation, I just find that I'm much more easily persuaded to a new idea when I don't want to rip out my interlocutor's tongue and strangle him with it. It's a thing.

What movie?

I think it never got distributed in the US; I saw it at a con on a film projector. It was called Rook, and had Martin Donovan in it, and it made no sense at all, except aesthetically.

I just find that I'm much more easily persuaded to a new idea when I don't want to rip out my interlocutor's tongue and strangle him with it.

An immoderate response.

I think how you imagine the dialogue happening would affect how it feels to you. If you're hearing a manifesto as if you're being hectored in a bar at a sci-fi con then a combative tone is going to feel boorish. If you already have a hate-on for say New Yorker short stories and think it's a circle jerk of pale academic writing, then you're going to welcome a big broadside blast.

The Girl Genius comics [link] also give good steampunk--at least, how I understand steampunk

Looks like Rook is on netflix

If you already have a hate-on for say New Yorker short stories and think it's a circle jerk of pale academic writing, then you're going to welcome a big broadside blast.

All that says to me, really, is that those big broadside blasts are preaching to the choir.

I will note that big broadside blasts in fandom frequently make me want to hit people and tell them to stop being on my side, you're making my side look stupid.

I have always seen cyberpunk this way:

Beth, I think I love you. Your explanation made it the furthest over my moat of non-understanding.

Well, I think that they are -- I mean, mostly we're talking a small(ish) circle of people who believe similar things and strongly enough that they decide to codify it. But it's really that gang that all goes to the same pub/cafe after spending the day at the studio.

I don't think manifestos succeed as persuasion. It's not a matter of preaching to anybody.

I think they just clarify points of divergence. It's a kind of mapping - the argument isn't happening on the level of individual discourse. By positing a movement you're creating an alternate institution to the ones you dislike.

Early British punk crystalized around things like Malcolm McLaren's t-shirt which articulated one aesthetic against an older aesthetic. Pink Floyd - Out. Eddie Cochran - In. etc.

Also, they usually don't happen unless the art under attack is as dull as the French academic painting which preceded the Impressionists. (Who did not have a manifesto, but did cause a few riots.)