Which isn't Tolkien,

I think it is. The way Tolkien talks about the race of men, and how they've become debased over time and there was this golden ideal is entirely consistent with the ideals of Aryan supremacy.

All those notions were very common in England, and Western Europe as well as Germany through the late nineteenth into the early twentieth century. (i.e., Tolkien's formative years)

It's as much the cornerstone of the British Empire and their justifications for colonizing India and Africa as it was for the Third Reich.

The ideals that informed the Nazi culture weren't made up in Hitler's noggin - they were very commonly held pseudoscience beliefs that were widespread through Western culture.

America too, obviously. The Nazi's based their eugenics programs on the Indiana Eugenics Law of 1907.

Anyway, Tolkien endorses a lot of those notions. I'm not saying he's a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer, but his core beliefs come from the same sources.

basically he's claiming that Tolkien actually believed Asian people were like that, and applied that to the Orcs

Thank you for clearing that up. That's not the sort of racist I think of Tolkien as being.

Thank you for clearing that up. That's not the sort of racist I think of Tolkien as being.

No, me neither.

I do think he's got a strong streak of "West/British good, East/Asia BAD" in his writing and on my last reread I really was struck at how many times Aragorn's awesomeness was attributed to his awesomely pure Western blood.

I do think he's got a strong streak of "West/British good, East/Asia BAD" in his writing and on my last reread I really was struck at how many times Aragorn's awesomeness was attributed to his awesomely pure Western blood.

Also Northern vs. Southern, as well. It's really hierarchical & authoritarian, with an uncomfortable emphasis on inherent characteristics and inherited authority. Gondorians are better than the Rohirrim because their ancestors made friends with the Elves and went to Numenor, that sort of thing.

I do think there's enough dodgy subtext (and text) in Tolkien that we don't really have to go looking for more...

I actually think Mark's take is pretty fair and not simply dogmatic:

It’s immensely problematic, sure, but that doesn’t mean I dislike this chapter, the Orcs, or the book. On the contrary, I acknowledge how fucked up and disappointing this is, and I’m also immensely entertained by the plot that Tolkien has written here. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with liking something that has its problems, as long as you’re willing to engage these things and make sure not to convince others who dislike it for this reason that they’re wrong. It is unfortunate that this characterization exists, but that doesn’t ruin it for me.

Ray Bradbury visits Disneyland in 1965: [link]

I acknowledge how fucked up and disappointing this is

I guess I think it's weird that it's disappointing. Why is it disappointing, except in the way you want everything to be perfect every time? Tolkien didn't promise you anything different...

But that's at the core of what I don't get about Mark, I guess.

Yeah, he can only be who he is.(Not that we can't change...argh.) But he can only be blamed a little for what he wrote at a less-sensitive time.

I guess I think it's weird that it's disappointing.

Wrod. "How dare you not be as enlightened and forward-thinking as a 21st-Century man should be, you born in the 19th century person, you."

Sometimes, when I was a kid, I'd get disappointed when an old children's book was sexist or something like that. Because I was eight, or whatever, approval-seeking, and not expecting it. I don't get lost in the story like I used to, but the upside is, that doesn't feel like a kick in the gut anymore.