Still thinking I don't understand this whole Plotty thing.

Hrrm.

Because the big divide I seem to see is external/internal journey, where a lot of the time I see plotty defined as the external WRT: fic. But it's not a distinction I see so much outside of fanfic, which could just be how I limit my reading.

Plot in Service to the Emotions vs. Emotions in Service to the Plot!

Ah-- this adds a whole layer of complication to the thing. My stories are normally the first kind, and so I think of them as non-plotty, emotion-driven, but they have so many events to serve the emotions that if I stand back, I can see you could read them as plot driven.

See, my problem is that most of my fanfic reading recently's been in Stargate and examples from that won't help you. Did you read... oh, Transubstantiation, right? The HP fic that was mentioned in here yesterday? In my head, that was weakly plotty. (Wonderful, also - HP fic isn't my thing, but that was fabulous.)

Plei, seems to me that once you get a fic of a certain length, it almost has to be "plotty", you know? Because you can't sustain an "internal journey" for very long without having things happen. Even if your object is to get a character from point A to point B, there have to be things that make that happen. There's a mystery to be solved, or an evil to be defeated, or a goat to be sacrificed, or something.

Because the big divide I seem to see is external/internal journey, where a lot of the time I see plotty defined as the external WRT: fic. But it's not a distinction I see so much outside of fanfic, which could just be how I limit my reading.

But-- and this kind of comes back to what I think Theo said about the MICE thing-- the best stories have an external journey or sequence that drives the internal changes, or the internal changes drive external events. A fic that doesn't have at least some of both is rarely good.

Edit: Or, you know, what Dana said.

Transfigurations? Which is currently living on my Palm? Less plotty than it might be, because the main focus of the story is Harry redefining Draco. The plot, though, is surprisingly good.

Plei, your statement about how you limit your reading and plottiness outside fanfic is interesting. Are you less concerned about plot in professional fiction? I have always been plot's bitch, and a good plot is enhanced by spot-on characterization of various types, fully-realized people with believeable motivations. But I'll take lackluster characterization if the plot is really fascinating.

I suspect the difference between novels and fanfic is one of percentages. Because 90% of fanfic is totally plot-free, anything that nods its head in the vague direction of plot tends to get called plotty. A twist ending that makes sense? Amajor factual revelation? The orgiastic heights of plot, and practically unheard-of in fanfic!

Novels are often plot-free too, but probably only, say, 40% of the time. (Another 40% of the time is occupied with crap submarine dramas and WWII adventures, which overcompensate with plot to the detriment of, um, everything else.) So novel-readers have a higher standard of "plotty".

Plei, seems to me that once you get a fic of a certain length, it almost has to be "plotty", you know? Because you can't sustain an "internal journey" for very long without having things happen. Even if your object is to get a character from point A to point B, there have to be things that make that happen. There's a mystery to be solved, or an evil to be defeated, or a goat to be sacrificed, or something.

It is possible that my assumption of the definitions of "plotty" is based on a handful of overly-rigid generalizations I stumbled across at some point, because a the things I'd seen had lead me to believe that the Things Making It Happen didn't count as plotty unless they were the majority of the story. Err. I'm still failing to make sense.

things I'd seen had lead me to believe that the Things Making It Happen didn't count as plotty unless they were the majority of the story.

No, that does make sense. But that's just...I mean, 51% of the story? Does it not count if it's 49%?

I guess we're back to definition here. If someone uses "plotty" to mean, say, "densely plotted", then I can start to narrow stuff down some. By the broader definition, I'd consider Transfigurations plotty, but not necessarily by the narrower one.

Plei, your statement about how you limit your reading and plottiness outside fanfic is interesting. Are you less concerned about plot in professional fiction? I have always been plot's bitch, and a good plot is enhanced by spot-on characterization of various types, fully-realized people with believeable motivations. But I'll take lackluster characterization if the plot is really fascinating.

I read very little that was written after about 1930. The plot (or action, or what have you) all tends to be secondary to the lives/choices/downfalls of the characters. Basically, a lot of Crap About People and Decisions and Probably With Some Moral to the Tale. Boring characters?

Forget it. Goes with Madame Bovary in the Crap Pile.

Interal turmoil? Epiphanies? Horrible death? That's all good.