for me style is *more* substance than substance, as it were

I have a friend for whom this is very much true. (We've had a couple of Faulkner vs. Dickens smackdowns). When I find a book, story, play, movie, or poem where style and substance both manage to build on each other, I feel like I've hit the jackpot.

that's what I had been thinking about when I talked, earlier, about the hypothetical, brilliant fantasy novels I'm just not aware of. It's still just as eminently possible that they are *out* there, brilliant and unread, but what I meant is that they would be brilliantly written in terms of technique and style.

RL, you may want to give some of Gene Wolfe's stuff a try, starting with "Shadow of the Torturer."

When I find a book, story, play, movie, or poem where style and substance both manage to build on each other, I feel like I've hit the jackpot.

So it feels rare to you? For me it's really the main requirement of successful art. Now I'm overcome with the urge to send you all these books I love, for that reason, to see if you'd like them.

RL, you may want to give some of Gene Wolfe's stuff a try, starting with "Shadow of the Torturer."

Yes ma'am.

So it feels rare to you?

Not so much rare as special, I guess. I'd love to know which books, plays, etc. get that jackpot feeling. There are plenty of books and stories that hit the mark on style and substance but that I find I don't like for one reason or another (usually they're too depressing, or I want to bitchslap the main character with two-by-four with nails in). I remember recommending a certain anime story to someone with the caveat: "This is the best story I didn't like. It's awesome, and brilliant, and I will never, ever read it again."

How can you not totally be in love with the idea of magic, for instance?

Heh. This is like how I don't understand how someone can hate The Simpsons. Yet plenty of people, even some smart people, do. Go figure.

I like a lot of the concepts in fantasy/SF books, but I'm usually not especially interested by the plots surrounding them, I guess? As I said, this is an uninformed reaction, and maybe there's an SF book out there that would make a convert out of me. I do love Kurt Vonnegut, like Octavia Butler and Phillip K. Dick, and think Laurell K. Hamilton writes fascinating trash, but it's never crossed over into wanting to read something *because* it's SF.

Now I'm overcome with the urge to send you all these books I love, for that reason, to see if you'd like them.

I'm suddenly fascinated to know what these would be. I think it's a rare thing, too. A few titles/authors? Please?

Can we shift the books discussion to Literary?

Now if anyone has any fanfic recs ...

Working on it.

I've got a friend looking for LoTR recs, non-slash. We've only got two at PolyRecs, and one is humor. Anyone have any they'd like to share?

Skipping and skimming... Lizard, I find Giles very sexy, but then maybe I'm just Electra Complex Gal. Okay no M with FayJay. But I believe many online people would like an F, so I hope you are not possessive. See, you know, I believe that's where these kerfuffles come from.people defending what they like sexually, etc. Litfic ex. for ita, imo: Carver, Toni Morrison, Andre Dubus,Barthelme, Cheever, Anne Beattie(a little heavy on short stories here, so dispute me if you want), Roth, Bellow.

What I'm looking for is some good gen/humor fic. Given the gray Februaryness of it all, I would like a good laugh of the PG-13 sort.

I, personally, completely in the inside of my head, cannot understand this at all. How can you not totally be in love with the idea of magic, for instance?

Um. I think that to some extent, the more you've lived, the less exciting the trappings of fantasy become. Possibly. Unless you're in a really horrible situation, in which case fair enough. But I can't think of a way of expressing this that doesn't boil down to being offensive and probably using the word 'escapism'.

Um. Keep in mind that I adore The Lord of the Rings and BtVS and that I will happily watch most any shiny genre TV/movie.

A long time ago, when I was a very cliched adolescent, I had a pin that said "Reality is for people who lack imagination." (Actually, I had a whole shitload of pins. It was the 80s.) That was pretty much my take on the world.

Now - well, now I think everyone has a different reality, and exploring these realities can be absolutely thrilling. People who lack imagination aren't inhabiting my reality, and their response to the world around them isn't going to be the same as mine. t still half convinced that sharks will eat her every time she gets in a swimming pool. although no longer worried about them in the bath.

As a teenager I devoured SF/F fiction. Presently I'm reading mostly genre-based fanfic and/or non-genre books. I'm still fond of SF/F in principle, but I think my take on it has shifted a little. With BtVS, for example, I adore the whole juxtaposition of pulp genre tropes & conventions against mundane reality - but the reason I'm so in love with the show is because it often uses these fantasy elements to mirror and explore reality. I mean, that's a big part of the appeal of SF/F for me - getting to step outside the normal framework, look at your world and/or issues and then re-present it all with a twist, so that you see things with fresh eyes. So that you see your own reality in a slightly different way - not expecting sharks to jump out of a swimming pool (Ooooh! Deep Blue Sea's on tonight! My very favouritest B movie!), but rather so that you can see your enemy's point of view, or reassess your values. That kind of thing.

Which sounds terribly earnest. I'm not terribly earnest, I'm really not. I'll happily engage with SF/F on a "Oooh, shiny" level, but (these days) for me to engage with it intellectually (and thus extend it a degree of respect) it needs to have resonances beyond that.

...and I'm not at all sure where I'm trying to go with this.

eta

Can we shift the books discussion to Literary?

Now if anyone has any fanfic recs ...

Whoops! Apologies. Shutting up for real.