I like my fiction to take place in a plausible world and feature plausible human characters. I can suspend one rule, like for Buffy, but very rarely both.

There is lots of fantasy out there which only requires suspension of the 'real world' rule. Many fantasy (and quite a lot of sci-fi) authors write characters that are as believeable as any other.

I should add that for me (mainly because I basically find this 'real' world to be boring) that's an advantage rather than a disadvantage in fantasy. I don't like unreal characters, though- there's a reason I gave up on Issac Asimov.

IJS. t /book talk

There is lots of fantasy out there which only requires suspension of the 'real world' rule. Many fantasy (and quite a lot of sci-fi) authors write characters that are as believeable as any other.

Oh, I know that. It still doesn't usually jazz me (like, I sat thru both LotR movies bored out of my skull, and I've never gotten thru more than four pages of Ursula LeGuin).

But I only read sf or fantasy if someone specifically recommends it to me and it doesn't sound too unreal, so I don't think my opinion is especially intelligent or informed.

It still doesn't usually jazz me

I, personally, completely in the inside of my head, cannot understand this at all. How can you not totally be in love with the idea of magic, for instance?

But I realise this is totally, totally personal, and I gave up seriously trying to convert people some time ago, unless they actually asked to have things recced to them, because I invariably end up sitting in the corner just saying, "Elves, man. Elves. How can you not love elves?" over and over again.

for me style is *more* substance than substance, as it were

I have a friend for whom this is very much true. (We've had a couple of Faulkner vs. Dickens smackdowns). When I find a book, story, play, movie, or poem where style and substance both manage to build on each other, I feel like I've hit the jackpot.

that's what I had been thinking about when I talked, earlier, about the hypothetical, brilliant fantasy novels I'm just not aware of. It's still just as eminently possible that they are *out* there, brilliant and unread, but what I meant is that they would be brilliantly written in terms of technique and style.

RL, you may want to give some of Gene Wolfe's stuff a try, starting with "Shadow of the Torturer."

When I find a book, story, play, movie, or poem where style and substance both manage to build on each other, I feel like I've hit the jackpot.

So it feels rare to you? For me it's really the main requirement of successful art. Now I'm overcome with the urge to send you all these books I love, for that reason, to see if you'd like them.

RL, you may want to give some of Gene Wolfe's stuff a try, starting with "Shadow of the Torturer."

Yes ma'am.

So it feels rare to you?

Not so much rare as special, I guess. I'd love to know which books, plays, etc. get that jackpot feeling. There are plenty of books and stories that hit the mark on style and substance but that I find I don't like for one reason or another (usually they're too depressing, or I want to bitchslap the main character with two-by-four with nails in). I remember recommending a certain anime story to someone with the caveat: "This is the best story I didn't like. It's awesome, and brilliant, and I will never, ever read it again."

How can you not totally be in love with the idea of magic, for instance?

Heh. This is like how I don't understand how someone can hate The Simpsons. Yet plenty of people, even some smart people, do. Go figure.

I like a lot of the concepts in fantasy/SF books, but I'm usually not especially interested by the plots surrounding them, I guess? As I said, this is an uninformed reaction, and maybe there's an SF book out there that would make a convert out of me. I do love Kurt Vonnegut, like Octavia Butler and Phillip K. Dick, and think Laurell K. Hamilton writes fascinating trash, but it's never crossed over into wanting to read something *because* it's SF.

Now I'm overcome with the urge to send you all these books I love, for that reason, to see if you'd like them.

I'm suddenly fascinated to know what these would be. I think it's a rare thing, too. A few titles/authors? Please?

Can we shift the books discussion to Literary?

Now if anyone has any fanfic recs ...

Working on it.

I've got a friend looking for LoTR recs, non-slash. We've only got two at PolyRecs, and one is humor. Anyone have any they'd like to share?