Yeah, but "afraid of" is subset of "not ready". I know there are people who would, quite justifiably, bristle if I challenged them with that. Which I won't. Because I know it's not right.

Why do you think it has to be about fear?

Oh, that was a thought that never went anywhere, because I stopped in embarrassment. I had meant to say, eventually, that I can't understand, intellectually or viscerally, what those people mean-- which is not to say that they're then WRONG, just that I've got something blocking my understanding of them-- because I can't understand being able to both *be* mature enough to *know* the limits of your own maturity, and *not* be mature enough for sex. They're bound up inextricably, in my mind, in a knotty pile of assumptions and history.

This was just a self-indulgent-type post.

cereal:

knowing enough about yourself to see what you can and can't handle.

See, yeah, my brain just freaks out at that. It goes, contradiction! (And dismisses the STD/pregnancy risks of sex as things that can be worked around-- working with a slightly looser definition of "sex".)

I did originally have some point I was trying to make, about young teenagers and sex and fragility and self-recognition, but halfway through I realized I was just insane, myself, and so posted anyway. Because I'm, I don't know. An exhibitionist.

Of the girls I know that lost their virginity young:

• One, raped, went on to be so self destructive (and often sexually) she was committed to an asylum for a time
• Another went on a spree of serial monogamous nymphomania that lasted almost 10 years, and is now a prude
• One became the world's most effective and forgiven tease, oozing sexuality, but not acting on it much, and is now a prude.
• One just went "Huh. That's the big deal?" and I don't think she had sex again for 4 or so years

Now, I can't precisely say who was ready, or who wasn't, who was damaged (save the rape victim), and who wasn't. But I do know from knowing these women pretty well, that thirteen year olds display an amazing amount of variety. But it's probably not going to damage anyone by making it terribly and horribly illegal to have sex with a thirteen year old.

I lost my virginity late. It was never due to fear. For a while I wasn't interested (which was pretty analogous to not ready, for me, then), and then when I pretty much was, there was no one around I was interested in sleeping with.

because I can't understand being able to both *be* mature enough to *know* the limits of your own maturity, and *not* be mature enough for sex. They're bound up inextricably, in my mind, in a knotty pile of assumptions and history.

I can think of plenty of those instances. It's not not being ready for sex itself. Most people, once they get to be teenagers, are ready for the physical act. It's not being ready to deal with the emotional, physical, and social consequences of sex. If someone is self-aware enough to know they want sex, then they're also (hopefully) self-aware enough to know what they can and cannot handle.

"Not ready for sex" can mean "I know that I can barely remember to turn in my homework and show up to class on time, so there's no way I'll remember to take the pill every day, or to tell him to put on a condom." Or it can mean "I'm not too good at keeping a relationship going for any period of time, and I wouldn't want to add all the emotional baggage of sex until I've figured out how to stay with one guy for longer than a month."

(And dismisses the STD/pregnancy risks of sex as things that can be worked around-- working with a slightly looser definition of "sex".)

Oral sex can spread STDs... Even mutual masturbation and kissing carry a risk (though very slight).

Hil, you've given my POV much better than I did.

Yup. What Hil said.

And I'm really not arguing. I mean, I'm not trying to. I mean, I think I need a muzzle.

Oral sex can spread STDs... Even mutual masturbation and kissing carry a risk (though very slight).

Thanks, Elena. I was going to say that. I would hate to see someone mistake oral sex for safe sex. There are many unpleasant forms of STDs that are spread that way, and the number of cases of STDs among young teens is growing.

You don't need a muzzle, Liz, your viewpoint is exactly as valid as anyone else's here.

Me, sex was this obscure mystery until college, and by then I'd had enough health classes and awkward maternal lectures to know that this was something fairly significant. Mostly it was "Which of these boys do I want to get naked with and let that far into my personal space?" Then it was trying to figure out how to bring up the matter with something approaching dignity. In the course of a weird flirtation/mutual seduction, I lost a very strange bet and shrugged to myself that now was a good time. It felt very nice to be able to choose the time rather than let desperate hormones make the decision. OK, and I sat with my friends in the dining hall that evening and smirked to myself cause they didn't know what I'd been up to that afternoon.