In a way that excludes Shaft, Enter The Dragon, Star Wars, French Connection, and Beverly Hills Cop?

I wouldn't exclude any of those movies per se (though I'd put Star Wars on the bubble of action movies).

I'd actually put Shaft, Enter the Dragon, French Connection and the previously mentioned Rambo in First Blood in the previous era of action movies. I'm not sure I can give you (ita) specific, satisfactory reasons for doing that, but those four movies strike me as belonging to a previous era.

On the other hand, I would most definitely put Axel Foley in the current crop of action heroes, and peg him as very similar to John McClain. They both certainly have the Buffy/Spiderman-style quippiness down.

But there's something about the other movies -- maybe it's their visual vocabulary -- that puts them in the previous era of action heroes for me.

Shaft

Blacksploitation/Private Eye

Enter The Dragon

Martial Arts

Star Wars

Sci-Fi

French Connection, and Beverly Hills Cop?

Police Procedural

Also, with the exception of Star Wars, while those films have action set pieces, the amount of screen time they consume is small compared to a modern action film.

There's a certain vulnerability to John McClain that makes him interesting. Otherwise, he'd just be another Schwarzenegger, biting off quotables as he's blowing people away. Instead, he limps, bleeds, suffers from bureaucratic idiots (Agents Johnson and Johnson, anyone?), all for his family.

Of course, I'm basing all this on my love of the first film. I saw the second one only once, and have never seen the third.

I don't think genres are exclusive--there are cop movies I'd say are action (BH Cop is definitely one of them) and there are ones I wouldn't. Same with martial arts movies, especially ones without Asian leads.

I admit, I hate all the Die Hard movies so far and have to stifle laughter at the latest previews. They're just so eye-rolly. I asked my friend I watched them with if McClain really was as cool as those trailers needed him to be, and his answer was "Well, maybe in the first movie."

The villain was good in the first one. And McClain taped a gun to his back. I respect that.

I think the wikipedia article is interesting: [link] It posits Adventure Film --> James Bond --> Cop Movies with Car Chases --> Die Hard. Basically.

Lethal Weapon! How could I forget that one? Yeah, it's a cop movie, and the mismatched buddy up the wazoo, but I can't exclude it from action.

I saw the second one only once, and have never seen the third.

If you liked the first one, you should definitely see the third, Kathy. It's much better than the second (though still not as good as the original), and it actually ties in to the story of the first one (as opposed to the second, which stands alone).

I hate all the Die Hard movies so far

Why didn't you like the first one? I would have thought that one, at least, would appeal to you.

Why didn't you like the first one?

Fuck. I used to have a thesis on this, but it fades in my memory. I thought McClain was overcool, for one (I hate the one liners from just about anyone), but there was something about his interaction with the black cop outside that I both predicted and hated. But I can't remember now.

I watched 2 because Dave Chappelle was supposed to be in it, but they cut his scenes. Not sure why in hell I watched the third. Drugs, perhaps.

John McClain is not the first quippy cop; he's not the first to blow shit up for no reason except an explosion must needs occur; he's not the first action hero to get the everliving crap beaten outta him in such a way that the audience is invited to both enjoy and identify with his suffering; he's not the first guy to succeed single-handed against all odds and he's not the first to sneer back at sneery European villains. He's just the first to do them all in the same movie.

Die Hard is to action movies like Casablanca is to war-movie cliches. Central clearinghouse that you enjoy despite finding every single ingredient boring by itself.

Actually there is a lot to hate in the subtext of Die Hard -- it comes across as a modern, cool piece of work and is full of retro stereotypes under the surface. At least Rambo you knew you disapproved of him going in, right? McClain is the kind of action hero you start out liking and then feel dirty about later.