I think the wikipedia article is interesting: [link] It posits Adventure Film --> James Bond --> Cop Movies with Car Chases --> Die Hard. Basically.

Lethal Weapon! How could I forget that one? Yeah, it's a cop movie, and the mismatched buddy up the wazoo, but I can't exclude it from action.

I saw the second one only once, and have never seen the third.

If you liked the first one, you should definitely see the third, Kathy. It's much better than the second (though still not as good as the original), and it actually ties in to the story of the first one (as opposed to the second, which stands alone).

I hate all the Die Hard movies so far

Why didn't you like the first one? I would have thought that one, at least, would appeal to you.

Why didn't you like the first one?

Fuck. I used to have a thesis on this, but it fades in my memory. I thought McClain was overcool, for one (I hate the one liners from just about anyone), but there was something about his interaction with the black cop outside that I both predicted and hated. But I can't remember now.

I watched 2 because Dave Chappelle was supposed to be in it, but they cut his scenes. Not sure why in hell I watched the third. Drugs, perhaps.

John McClain is not the first quippy cop; he's not the first to blow shit up for no reason except an explosion must needs occur; he's not the first action hero to get the everliving crap beaten outta him in such a way that the audience is invited to both enjoy and identify with his suffering; he's not the first guy to succeed single-handed against all odds and he's not the first to sneer back at sneery European villains. He's just the first to do them all in the same movie.

Die Hard is to action movies like Casablanca is to war-movie cliches. Central clearinghouse that you enjoy despite finding every single ingredient boring by itself.

Actually there is a lot to hate in the subtext of Die Hard -- it comes across as a modern, cool piece of work and is full of retro stereotypes under the surface. At least Rambo you knew you disapproved of him going in, right? McClain is the kind of action hero you start out liking and then feel dirty about later.

Nutty's comments on John McClain remind me of another, unbelievably awful action movie, that I find myself wanting to like anyway. I'm not sure I actually like it, I just want to.

Val Kilmer's The Saint.

I want to like it because he's an action hero who only ever fires a gun once, and that at an inanimate object. (I hear that Children of Men features a hero who fires a gun never, which adds to the list of reasons I need to see that movie)

(I hear that Children of Men features a hero who fires a gun never, which adds to the list of reasons I need to see that movie)

I don't think he even touches one. Then again, most bewildered, passive, and confused "hero" evar. Which is also kind of the point. But I wouldn't call it an "action movie" by any stretch of the imagination. You could make the case for its being a dark caper picture, or a roadless and unhinged road movie, but action is kind of incidental.

I can't help liking the Saint but not because of the main characters. I loved the Russians and their interactions with each other.

As much as I don't want to like Val...I do. But not so much in this role. I even love cheese...but this one was chees-tastic.

action is kind of incidental.

Well, for values of incidental that coincide with marvellous. It's not a driver or a tool used by our hero, but shit sure blows up nice.

It's a good thing I have no cred to lose, but I liked many of Jean Claude Van Damme's action heroes. He saved the day in the end, but sometimes didn't get the girl (like in Nowhere To Run where he goes back to jail (after one of the nakedest sex scenes ever)) and is pointedly emotional in many, and not just angry and thirsty for revenge.

I loved the Russians in The Saint, and always love Rade Serbedzija in pretty much everything he's in (most of all as the crazy Russian in Snatch).

But really, The Saint falls apart not because of its actors (though there are plenty of bad performances). It falls apart because of the absolute idocy of everything else in the movie.