Yeah, the only thing that gave Miles pause was Ben not remembering Sayid, and now we know that that's because of losing his innocence or whatever, so Miles seems to be right. Which puts our time travelers in a deterministic universe - the most sensible and least satisfying way to deal with time-travel paradoxes.

I just want Sun and Jin reunited. Enough of the 70s.

Which puts our time travelers in a deterministic universe - the most sensible and least satisfying way to deal with time-travel paradoxes.

I don't know, I found 12 Monkeys pretty satisfying.

Point taken. It can make for satisfying stories, but it is not satisfying to ponder in the abstract.

I think the tension is whether they will get the fuck out of there before Ben gasses the place or not.

Ben was all grown up when that happened, wasn't he? So they'd have to stick around for another 10 years, *at least*. Probably more like 15-20.

I thought he was a still a kid at that point, but I am using my mind's DVR for that and it is not so much with the accuracy.

Eta: Lostpedia says it was 1992: [link]

Well, he didn't know that Ben would magically not remember getting shot. Miles is completely right so far.

No, no, no. At the end of his conversation with Hurley, Miles realizes he doesn't have it all figured out as well as he thought he did.

MILES: What the hell are you doing, tubby?

HUGO: Checking to see if I'm disappearing.

MILES: What?

HUGO: "Back to the Future," man. We came back in time to the island and changed stuff. So if little Ben dies, he'll never grow up to be big Ben, who's the one who made us come back here in the first place. Which means we can't be here. And therefore, dude? We don't exist.

MILES: You're an idiot.

HUGO: Am I?

MILES: Yeah. It doesn't work like that. You can't change anything. Your maniac Iraqi buddy shot Linus. That is what always happened. It's just...we never experienced how it all turns out.

HUGO: This is really confusing.

MILES: Yeah, well, get used to it. But the good news is that Linus didn't die, so that means the kid can't, either. He'll be fine.

KATE: Didn't look like he was gonna be fine. What if you're wrong?

MILES: Well, if I'm wrong, then I guess we all stop existing, and none of it matters anyway then, does it?

[Sawyer tries to get Jack to help Ben. Jack refuses. Kate and Jack fight. And then later, in another scene...]

HUGO: let me get this straight. All this already happened.

MILES: Yes.

HUGO: So this conversation we're having right now -- **we already had it**?

MILES: **Yes!**

HUGO: Then what am I gonna say next?

MILES: I don't know.

HUGO: Then your theory is wrong!

MILES: For the thousandth time, you dingbat, the conversation already happened, but not for you and me. [my note: **then Miles has just contradicted himself*** because he answered "Yes," when Hurley asked, "We already had it?"] for you and me, it's happening right now.

HUGO: Okay, answer me this. If all this already happened to me, then why don't I remember any of it?

MILES: Because once Ben turned that wheel, time isn't a straight line for us anymore. Our experiences in the past and the future occurred before these experiences right now. [note from me: I get and agree with this part.]

HUGO: Say that again.

MILES: [Hands Hugo his gun] Shoot me. Please. Please?

HUGO: Aha! I can't shoot you, because if you die in 1977, then you'll never come back to the island on the freighter 30 years from now.

MILES: I can die because I've already come to the island on the freighter. Any of us can die because this is our present.

HUGO: But you said Ben couldn't die because he still has to grow up and become the leader of the Others.

MILES: Because this is his past.

HUGO: But when we first captured Ben, and Sayid...like...tortured him, then why wouldn't he remember getting shot by that same guy when he was a kid?

MILES: Huh. I hadn't thought of that.

HUGO: Huh.

The music and the look on Miles' face when he admits he hadn't considered that scenario tell me he's working as much on (educated) guesswork as fact.

eta...

If they buy too much into the "Whatever Happened, Happened," theory, they're giving up their agency and they're going to become useless. As a doctor, Jack should have tried to save that bleeding kid, even though he does grow up to be the Benjamin Linus who imprisoned him, because 12 year old Ben hasn't done anything like that, yet.

Well, yeah, but now we know why Ben wouldn't remember getting shot by that same guy when he was a kid, so Miles is looking pretty right.

Oh I forgot about that. That makes sense.

What makes the most sense is his saying that their past has already happened (not so much their "future" but I think by that, he just meant the lives they lived between 1977 and 2007, so it's okay with me) and that this is their present, regardless of the fact that it happens to be happening in 1977.

Where he contradicted himself about their conversation though, makes me think it's still not all sussed out.

It would have been interesting if none of the people who've lived through at least 2004 had agreed to help Ben (including Juliet). I'd like to see how the island would have still fixed that.

I'd like to see how the island would have still fixed that.

Establish a new main cast?

Seriously, Daniel needs to be around for this stuff. Even if just in a vague "Farraday would have explained that better" or "You make just as much sense as Daniel".

Man, I love that Jack and Sayid have created their own worst enemy. One shot him, one refused to save him.