Do you have a problem with the people you're playing with drawing the line in different places from you?

I guess it would depend on the specifics.

I should probably confess that my arguing that card counting is OK is based on a gut feeling. As opposed to my acknowledgement that casinos can players who count cards, which is based on my understanding of business law.

It's like the casinos tell you, "If we catch you counting cards, we will throw you out." Then you take that possible eventuality into account when you decide to count cards or not. Then if you do count cards and they catch you, you live with the consequences of being thrown out (and possibly banned for life).

To me, that's all the rules are (in this particular case) - a statement of consequences if they observe certain behavior from you.

Anyway, I gotta run.

I think bussing a table in a fast food restaurant is good etiquette because McDonalds isn't gonna bother cleaning it up, and it's just going to be on the next customer to clean the space so they can use it.

Counting cards doesn't harm other players. It's what casinos have deemed to be cheating.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. I'm just saying it's unethical.

this confuses me. For me, a fundamental part of things being unethical means that you shouldn't do them.

They can't stop it, but they can create enough shame about it to maintain their advantages.

I think that's the problem, that there is no shame about it. I think that the general public is happy when the 'little guy" wins, especially when he doesn't cheat. There's no shame involved in counting cards because you haven't done anything wrong. That's why they have to make it "against the rules"

Well, practicality is a whole other argument.

True. But why would anybody in their right mind play along with the house, if the house is requiring you to play a game of skill as if it were a game of chance? The logical extension of the disallowance of card-counting is a row of blackjack players not allowed to add their card-values before deciding whether to ask for another card.

OMG! Dyscalculia gambling!! Craps would be hilarious, wouldn't it?

For me, a fundamental part of things being unethical means that you shouldn't do them.

In a perfect world, yes. It's also how I try to behave.

Me saying something is unethical implies I don't think I should do it. And if you're someone over whom I have authority in that arena, I'll extend my "don't!" to you.

There's no one in the world over whom I have that authority. Party of one over here.

I think bussing a table in a fast food restaurant is good etiquette because McDonalds isn't gonna bother cleaning it up, and it's just going to be on the next customer to clean the space so they can use it.

But it's an etiquette problem that's created by the party who, David is saying, should ultimately be taking that responsibility. You are in a position of accepting their rudeness (of not cleaning your table) and doing it yourself or being rude to another innocent party (leaving it for the next customer). It's a social dynamic, not a rule, but I think I agree.

OTOH, one could argue that there's a tacit agreement being made that the customer will bus my own table in exchange for not paying the extra penny or two for my Big Mac that busboys would add to the cost. And in fact, that's also what I'm doing by supplanting their labor costs regarding waitresses, too. So maybe I don't agree after all.

the same issue as busing your table at McDonald's.

I stopped picking up after myself at movie theaters when ticket prices hit $10. I noticed that's when they started having cleaning crews go in between shows, so I know I'm not leaving a mess for other patrons. However, I do take trays back at fast food places and hang clothes back on the right racks and the right spots at department stores.

It's a social dynamic, not a rule, but I think I agree.

That's exactly it. But they exploit the social dynamic - that you're imposing on the people after you - to save themselves a business expense. But it's their responsibility to maintain the facility.

However, I do take trays back at fast food places and hang clothes back on the right racks and the right spots at department stores.

I'd end up doing this regardless of price. My anal-retentiveness is the restaurant/retailer's best friend.

OTOH, one could argue that there's a tacit agreement being made that the customer will bus my own table in exchange for not paying the extra penny or two for my Big Mac that busboys would add to the cost. And in fact, that's also what I'm doing by supplanting their labor costs regarding waitresses, too. So maybe I don't agree after all.

I think the waitress (or waiter) thing is a good point. Presumably, McDonalds does pay someone to clean the place every night and probably between the big meal time crowds (like at 10:30 a.m., 3:00 p.m., and 8:30 p.m. for example.) Course I don't eat at McDonalds so I could be making that up. But a busboy would just raise the prices on the food, and there are plenty of places you can go to pay more for food and have your table bussed.