I'm not talking about the odds of what's dealt. I'm talking about the odds of you winning. Those, surely, are altered. Isn't that what betting strategies are for?

No; the odds of your winning remains the same, whether you bet $10 or $100. The odds of you winning a lot of money may have changed, but they change every time you decide how much to bet. Counting cards is a strategy for deciding how much to bet, and when -- it just happens to be a more accurate strategy than asking the waiter what he thinks.

It's not like suborning a ballplayer to throw a game; it's like watching a ballplayer wince as he gets out of his zillion-dollar tricycle, and forecasting on that publically-available, but little-noticed, intelligence what the game's outcome will be.

And anyway, how do you realistically stop people from doing it? I always have at least a vague idea of how long it's been since somebody was dealt a face card, and I'm no memorization genius. Similarly, I can look at a hitter in a slump and predict that he'll return to career norms over the long term. Disallowing card-counting -- or any other non-invasive data-gathering strategy -- is like disallowing the rain to fall.

Aimee, I gotchya.

You do what you can to win.

Where do you draw the line, tommy? I mean, you won't do anything to win, will you? Do you have a problem with the people you're playing with drawing the line in different places from you?

eta:

Disallowing card-counting -- or any other non-invasive data-gathering strategy -- is like disallowing the rain to fall.

Well, practicality is a whole other argument.

I admit that the thrust of my "odds" should have been not how often you win, but how much. Still, I've seen how card counters win more often than non-counters (sepends on the game), so I still think it applies in my sloppy usage.

I think someone should sue for the right to count cards in casinos. I mean, gambling games are set to favor the house but they are still regulated. Unless the gaming commission ratifies the card counting rules, (which they may have done, I don't know) I think it's something that can and should be legislated or litigated.

And anyway, how do you realistically stop people from doing it?

I think of it as the same issue as busing your table at McDonald's. McDonald's (and other fast food restaurants) have created a cultural vibe that it's rude to leave your tray on the table when you leave. As if you were a guest there intead of a paying customer. It's their responsibility to keep the place clean for their customers, but it's on you to pick up your mess. This way they don't have to pay for a busboy. You're doing part of their labor costs for free, even though it doesn't bear much scrutiny when you think it through.

Casinos enforce the notion that card counting is wrong, or cheating, when it's nothing but competence. They can't stop it, but they can create enough shame about it to maintain their advantages.

Do you have a problem with the people you're playing with drawing the line in different places from you?

I guess it would depend on the specifics.

I should probably confess that my arguing that card counting is OK is based on a gut feeling. As opposed to my acknowledgement that casinos can players who count cards, which is based on my understanding of business law.

It's like the casinos tell you, "If we catch you counting cards, we will throw you out." Then you take that possible eventuality into account when you decide to count cards or not. Then if you do count cards and they catch you, you live with the consequences of being thrown out (and possibly banned for life).

To me, that's all the rules are (in this particular case) - a statement of consequences if they observe certain behavior from you.

Anyway, I gotta run.

I think bussing a table in a fast food restaurant is good etiquette because McDonalds isn't gonna bother cleaning it up, and it's just going to be on the next customer to clean the space so they can use it.

Counting cards doesn't harm other players. It's what casinos have deemed to be cheating.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. I'm just saying it's unethical.

this confuses me. For me, a fundamental part of things being unethical means that you shouldn't do them.

They can't stop it, but they can create enough shame about it to maintain their advantages.

I think that's the problem, that there is no shame about it. I think that the general public is happy when the 'little guy" wins, especially when he doesn't cheat. There's no shame involved in counting cards because you haven't done anything wrong. That's why they have to make it "against the rules"

Well, practicality is a whole other argument.

True. But why would anybody in their right mind play along with the house, if the house is requiring you to play a game of skill as if it were a game of chance? The logical extension of the disallowance of card-counting is a row of blackjack players not allowed to add their card-values before deciding whether to ask for another card.

OMG! Dyscalculia gambling!! Craps would be hilarious, wouldn't it?

For me, a fundamental part of things being unethical means that you shouldn't do them.

In a perfect world, yes. It's also how I try to behave.

Me saying something is unethical implies I don't think I should do it. And if you're someone over whom I have authority in that arena, I'll extend my "don't!" to you.

There's no one in the world over whom I have that authority. Party of one over here.

I think bussing a table in a fast food restaurant is good etiquette because McDonalds isn't gonna bother cleaning it up, and it's just going to be on the next customer to clean the space so they can use it.

But it's an etiquette problem that's created by the party who, David is saying, should ultimately be taking that responsibility. You are in a position of accepting their rudeness (of not cleaning your table) and doing it yourself or being rude to another innocent party (leaving it for the next customer). It's a social dynamic, not a rule, but I think I agree.

OTOH, one could argue that there's a tacit agreement being made that the customer will bus my own table in exchange for not paying the extra penny or two for my Big Mac that busboys would add to the cost. And in fact, that's also what I'm doing by supplanting their labor costs regarding waitresses, too. So maybe I don't agree after all.