I suspect that no name is safe.

Kids are so cruel. That's pretty much a given. I knew a kid in grade school that could come up with a disgusting rhyme to match any given name. But he picked his nose a lot and didn't graduate high school so look where that got him.

So, I'm taking advantage of this Rosh Hashanah to do a lot of reading about Judaism. Specifically, gauging whether it makes sense to me, and reading up on basic advice for possible way-pre-converts.

It's annoying.

In order to marry my current girlfriend and be accepted by her community and family, who worship in Orthodox synagogues, I would have to convert Orthodox. This, however, would most likely (though not necessarily for absolute certain - I'm still getting details) require testifying before a religious court that I will always dress in a certain way, and will avoid physical contact with the opposite sex, and will not swim in mixed company. I may have to say I would not attend a family wedding held in a Christian church, or a funeral.

I can't do that. The annoying thing is, SHE doesn't follow these laws. She doesn't believe them. She has actually been known to get ANGRY at the mention of such laws. She actively avoids socializing with people who follow such laws. She gets away from synagogue as quickly as possible after each service, so as to avoid a throng of Orthodox Jew-boys throwing themselvs at her (without touching.) I'm pretty sure, based on the reading I've been doing, that she's much more a Conservative than an Orthodox, except for a very small number of traditions that are enough to keep her in the Orthodox world.

Most of the things she believes and does, I could promise to do. All of them, in fact, if I had to guess. I can believe in G-d - as presented in Judaism, it's almost easy for me. I can follow Shabaat laws and Kosher laws. I can observe holidays, and study Hebrew, and send my children to Jewish day schools. It would take some serious internal contemplation and thought for me to decide to do these things, major deliberation, but at least they aren't something I have to declare impossible. But that's not enough. It's quite likely that I'd get rejected for Orthodox conversion, just for believing exactly as the girl I'm trying to marry believes.

So why not convert to Conservative or Reform instead? After all, Conservatives are still Jewish, so at least the cultural divide is somewhat removed, even if we couldn't get married by her home Rabbi (who she disagrees with about most stuff anyway), right? WRONG. Conservative converts are not Jewish in the eyes of the Orthodox church. Technically, marrying a converted Conservative would be a (horror!) intermarriage. Marrying a Jewish guy who was raised Reform and is adamantly atheistic would be a Jewish marriage (if not ideal), but marrying a converted Conservative, NSM.

So in order to get married to this girl, I might have to confess a belief in things she actively HATES. Because it's okay to not believe those things and still be Orthodox, but it's not okay to not believe them and CONVERT to Orthodox.

She cares about the opinion of the Orthodox church?

Yes.

Not because of religious issues, necessarily, or not entirely (though there are laws forbidding marriages to non-Jews, so the rest does follow) but because of cultural ones. It's not enough for me to believe and/or follow laws of the Jewish religion - I would need to actually be Jewish. In America, there are only two ways to be officially recognized as Jewish by everybody:

1) Be born to a female Jew, whether she's Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Reform, or Secular

2) Convert Orthodox

That's it. No other options.

ETA: It really is a lot like becoming a citizen in a country. You have to go through a lot of hell to become a U.S. Citizen - or, you have to be born in the right place or to the right people.

Hmm. well, I can think of one guy who's converted for marriage (FULLY converted, as someone stressed today), and he certainly doesn't follow those rules. I guess his wife doesn't care about a) him discarding the promise or b) him being considered Jewish by everybody. His wife sounds more observant than your girlfriend, but hey, these things are complicated.

if your girlfriend needs you to be Jewish, it sounds like she has some things she needs to resolve, before you even get started.

In America, there are only two ways to be officially recognized as Jewish by everybody:

But the thing is, this philosphy gives the Orthodox veto power over everybody else's religious views. (Man, this brings back the old "who is a Jew?" debate on soc.culture.jewish.)

I think the real problem is that your fiancee needs you to be accepted by the Orthodox community, not that she wants you to be a Jew. Otherwise, she'd be good with a Conservative conversion. Although I think in any case the rabbis are supposed to strongly, strongly discourage conversion, especially for the purpose of marriage.

Well, it's very possible that the web pages I'm reading are wrongish, and I could find Orthodox churches / Rabbies that would convert me without forcing me to dress in a suit or avoid looking at bikini-clad women. There are books, and I plan to read them.

And the GF is really quite observant, she just thinks that some (many?) Orthodox people draw the line at the wrong place in the "laws can be converted to modern times" thing, and gets really angry when they try to force their interpretation on others, especially others who are EXTREMELY serious about their religious faith. It's just like being a very serious Christian, and getting angry at Pat Robertson.

I'm not at all sure she has issues she needs to resolve, necessarily. Lots of Jewish people don't date outside the faith/culture/nation. It's a hassle, as the religion doesn't officially recognize marriages outside of it, and intermarriage is leading to the slow (or, actually, rather quick) degradation of the largest Jewish population in the world (yes, I'm pretty sure we've got more of them than Israel. Barely.), which is a reasonable thing to want to save. And the fact that she would want to send her kids to a Jewish school (like the one she went to), and raise them Jewish, is a priority I have no problem granting her. Everybody has their things that they care about - religion has never been a big one for me, but it is for her. The religion stresses family traditions and values to such an extent, though, that it would be basically impossible to raise an observant Jewish family if one of the parents were not an observant Jew.

The culture would have her acknowledge this impossibility of marrying a non-Jew as a reason to avoid socializing with non-Jews regularly, making good friends with them, and, definitely, dating them. Clearly, she rejects these (purely cultural, and in no way required) restrictions, for which I give her two thumbs up. But the fact remains that in order to get married and have kids with this girl, I'd need to be a Jew first.

She doesn't know I'm reading about this. She would probably be annoyed at me for doing so. Or at least seriously weirded out. It's still very exploratory for me, and not going to lead anywhere almost certainly. It doesn't hurt that I really would like to believe in a religion, and Judaism seems like a very fascinating one, so learning about it is fun outside of the context of the relationship.

Although I think in any case the rabbis are supposed to strongly, strongly discourage conversion, especially for the purpose of marriage.

This is actually not nearly as true as it once was. There is an ancient tradition, that some Rabbis follow, of turning away potential converts three times, but it's not treated with much heart. Many Conservative rabbis, especially, seriously push welcoming converts, and doing whatever possible to help them become good Jews, regardless of their reasons. It's a very practical religion.

As for the Orthodox community thing - you're right, of course. But there is something to say for the idea that, if I were to convert, I'd at least want to be acknowledged as Jewish by everybody in the Jewish community. I wouldn't need to be approved of - hell, I wouldn't expect it, ever, I'm not one for making nice, and, as mentioned, the girl isn't approved of in many circles herself, but I'd at least want to be recognized.

Being ignored is much worse than being hated, I guess.

Should the Orthodox church just accept Conservative/Reform converts? Well, I think so, but I can see why they don't want to. I actually understand it completely. Even if I didn't, that's not a battle I'm in a position to fight, obviously.

Honestly, I'm not sure if the girl herself would see me as marriagably Jewish if I did a Conservative conversion. She was raised Orthodox, and she agrees with a lot of their interpretations of specific laws. This is the type of thing she might very well back their views on. I'd ask, but, seriously, the fact that I'm thinking about this so hard at this point is totally weird.

AmyLiz, you had a pet named Fancy, too? My family had many dachshunds named Fancy when I was a kid. I never thought about it then, but now it sure seems bizarre. Fancy 1, Fancy 2, Fancy 3...

Faye/Kaye

My mother's maiden name was Gay. Her mother's name was Fay and her stepmother's name was Kay. You can't make this shit up.

meara mejor:

Is it expected in other countries with a large nominally Christian population?

My experience is that it's not questioned in other Christian countries. A certain level of eduction, including religious eduction, is assumed. In most other countries, there is a clear majority of religious beliefs, so membership in that belief is also assumed, and if the candidate is found to not be a member of the prevalent belief, yeah, it's a problem.

One could surmise that a majority of Americans have some very basic knowledge of the Bible. One could surmise that a majority of Brtis and Germans don't.

But that would just be elitist, so one shouldn't.

Isn't a nominal knowledge of the Koran expected in countries with large nominally Muslim populations? Do you think a candidate for political office in Lebanon could get away with saying anything dumb about the Koran?

Most other countries don't have separation of church and state. Lebanon, as one of the few countries with a Muslim majority (Muslim 59.7%, Christian 39% ) whose legal system isn't shaari'a, is an interesting example, but I have to say that I've never seen a discussion of the candidates Korannic knowledge play any part in their elections.

Note that Lebanon is less Muslim than the US is Christian (about 78%), so one could postulate that a knowledge of the Christian Bible and membership in a Christian faith (pref. Protestant) would be more important in the US than knowledge of the Koran and membership in the Muslim faith would be in Lebanon.

Conversely, I know that I have a tendancy to be extra scornful of Christianity vs. other religions, because I'm confronted with it much more often. I'm hostile toward Christianity in a way that I am not toward Judaism, Islam, or just about any other religion.

and

On the other hand, I can't remember the last time an individual person of faith tried to make me feel as though I were wrong for not having faith. Even the most fundamentalist people I know don't cluck their tongues.

Well, since for me, this was YESTERDAY, that's one of the reasons I'm more hostile towards American Protestantism. Christians of other nations have never tutted me, nor have I been tutted for not being Muslim, Confucian, Hindu, or Orthodox in the other countries I've lived in.

Of course, it's occasionally been clear that I am a lesser person for not being Confucian, or just kinda weird for not being Orthdox, but the American fundies both here and at home in NM work to make me feel defective for not sharing their beliefs.

I was told once by a Jew that I should have been Jewish, which was a compliment. And not the kind of pressure that Gris is getting.

-----

I'd be okay with someone naming their boy Raquel or Rachel, although I'd think they weren't doing him any favors. The name slippage seems to work from boy to girl, though, and has forever: Anna used to be a boys' name, back in the Dark Ages.

Are there girls named Peach? I knew a Peaches in high school, but she was considered to have a weird name. (Her boyfriend was named Paris, and "Peaches & Paris" was almost poetic).

clearly neither Gwyneth nor Nic Cage uses the Oath of Office test.

Yep. Although, since everyone I've worked with for the last ~13 years has taken the Oath of Office, I've heard some strange names in it. Not sure it would work as a filter for me anymore.

I suspect that no name is safe.

Truly. The kids told me in kindergarten that "Rachel" was a boy's name. And the kids who called me Rachel shortened it to Roach. Which is why I moved towards Raquel and Raq, unlovely as it may be. In my head, I'm LADY SHIVA BRAINIAC !!!!

What about Lana L---?

My porn star name would be Quita Fifth, or Summer Richardson. I don't remember which came first.

sj, stack the cats, baybee

Pusher.

I'm seriously considering light plate covers, but I don't think I have singletons at home.

They won't fit mine here, but I think I'll get some anyway for my future NE Seattle bungalow. (continued...)