Well, it's very possible that the web pages I'm reading are wrongish, and I could find Orthodox churches / Rabbies that would convert me without forcing me to dress in a suit or avoid looking at bikini-clad women. There are books, and I plan to read them.

And the GF is really quite observant, she just thinks that some (many?) Orthodox people draw the line at the wrong place in the "laws can be converted to modern times" thing, and gets really angry when they try to force their interpretation on others, especially others who are EXTREMELY serious about their religious faith. It's just like being a very serious Christian, and getting angry at Pat Robertson.

I'm not at all sure she has issues she needs to resolve, necessarily. Lots of Jewish people don't date outside the faith/culture/nation. It's a hassle, as the religion doesn't officially recognize marriages outside of it, and intermarriage is leading to the slow (or, actually, rather quick) degradation of the largest Jewish population in the world (yes, I'm pretty sure we've got more of them than Israel. Barely.), which is a reasonable thing to want to save. And the fact that she would want to send her kids to a Jewish school (like the one she went to), and raise them Jewish, is a priority I have no problem granting her. Everybody has their things that they care about - religion has never been a big one for me, but it is for her. The religion stresses family traditions and values to such an extent, though, that it would be basically impossible to raise an observant Jewish family if one of the parents were not an observant Jew.

The culture would have her acknowledge this impossibility of marrying a non-Jew as a reason to avoid socializing with non-Jews regularly, making good friends with them, and, definitely, dating them. Clearly, she rejects these (purely cultural, and in no way required) restrictions, for which I give her two thumbs up. But the fact remains that in order to get married and have kids with this girl, I'd need to be a Jew first.

She doesn't know I'm reading about this. She would probably be annoyed at me for doing so. Or at least seriously weirded out. It's still very exploratory for me, and not going to lead anywhere almost certainly. It doesn't hurt that I really would like to believe in a religion, and Judaism seems like a very fascinating one, so learning about it is fun outside of the context of the relationship.

Although I think in any case the rabbis are supposed to strongly, strongly discourage conversion, especially for the purpose of marriage.

This is actually not nearly as true as it once was. There is an ancient tradition, that some Rabbis follow, of turning away potential converts three times, but it's not treated with much heart. Many Conservative rabbis, especially, seriously push welcoming converts, and doing whatever possible to help them become good Jews, regardless of their reasons. It's a very practical religion.

As for the Orthodox community thing - you're right, of course. But there is something to say for the idea that, if I were to convert, I'd at least want to be acknowledged as Jewish by everybody in the Jewish community. I wouldn't need to be approved of - hell, I wouldn't expect it, ever, I'm not one for making nice, and, as mentioned, the girl isn't approved of in many circles herself, but I'd at least want to be recognized.

Being ignored is much worse than being hated, I guess.

Should the Orthodox church just accept Conservative/Reform converts? Well, I think so, but I can see why they don't want to. I actually understand it completely. Even if I didn't, that's not a battle I'm in a position to fight, obviously.

Honestly, I'm not sure if the girl herself would see me as marriagably Jewish if I did a Conservative conversion. She was raised Orthodox, and she agrees with a lot of their interpretations of specific laws. This is the type of thing she might very well back their views on. I'd ask, but, seriously, the fact that I'm thinking about this so hard at this point is totally weird.

AmyLiz, you had a pet named Fancy, too? My family had many dachshunds named Fancy when I was a kid. I never thought about it then, but now it sure seems bizarre. Fancy 1, Fancy 2, Fancy 3...

Faye/Kaye

My mother's maiden name was Gay. Her mother's name was Fay and her stepmother's name was Kay. You can't make this shit up.

meara mejor:

Is it expected in other countries with a large nominally Christian population?

My experience is that it's not questioned in other Christian countries. A certain level of eduction, including religious eduction, is assumed. In most other countries, there is a clear majority of religious beliefs, so membership in that belief is also assumed, and if the candidate is found to not be a member of the prevalent belief, yeah, it's a problem.

One could surmise that a majority of Americans have some very basic knowledge of the Bible. One could surmise that a majority of Brtis and Germans don't.

But that would just be elitist, so one shouldn't.

Isn't a nominal knowledge of the Koran expected in countries with large nominally Muslim populations? Do you think a candidate for political office in Lebanon could get away with saying anything dumb about the Koran?

Most other countries don't have separation of church and state. Lebanon, as one of the few countries with a Muslim majority (Muslim 59.7%, Christian 39% ) whose legal system isn't shaari'a, is an interesting example, but I have to say that I've never seen a discussion of the candidates Korannic knowledge play any part in their elections.

Note that Lebanon is less Muslim than the US is Christian (about 78%), so one could postulate that a knowledge of the Christian Bible and membership in a Christian faith (pref. Protestant) would be more important in the US than knowledge of the Koran and membership in the Muslim faith would be in Lebanon.

Conversely, I know that I have a tendancy to be extra scornful of Christianity vs. other religions, because I'm confronted with it much more often. I'm hostile toward Christianity in a way that I am not toward Judaism, Islam, or just about any other religion.

and

On the other hand, I can't remember the last time an individual person of faith tried to make me feel as though I were wrong for not having faith. Even the most fundamentalist people I know don't cluck their tongues.

Well, since for me, this was YESTERDAY, that's one of the reasons I'm more hostile towards American Protestantism. Christians of other nations have never tutted me, nor have I been tutted for not being Muslim, Confucian, Hindu, or Orthodox in the other countries I've lived in.

Of course, it's occasionally been clear that I am a lesser person for not being Confucian, or just kinda weird for not being Orthdox, but the American fundies both here and at home in NM work to make me feel defective for not sharing their beliefs.

I was told once by a Jew that I should have been Jewish, which was a compliment. And not the kind of pressure that Gris is getting.

-----

I'd be okay with someone naming their boy Raquel or Rachel, although I'd think they weren't doing him any favors. The name slippage seems to work from boy to girl, though, and has forever: Anna used to be a boys' name, back in the Dark Ages.

Are there girls named Peach? I knew a Peaches in high school, but she was considered to have a weird name. (Her boyfriend was named Paris, and "Peaches & Paris" was almost poetic).

clearly neither Gwyneth nor Nic Cage uses the Oath of Office test.

Yep. Although, since everyone I've worked with for the last ~13 years has taken the Oath of Office, I've heard some strange names in it. Not sure it would work as a filter for me anymore.

I suspect that no name is safe.

Truly. The kids told me in kindergarten that "Rachel" was a boy's name. And the kids who called me Rachel shortened it to Roach. Which is why I moved towards Raquel and Raq, unlovely as it may be. In my head, I'm LADY SHIVA BRAINIAC !!!!

What about Lana L---?

My porn star name would be Quita Fifth, or Summer Richardson. I don't remember which came first.

sj, stack the cats, baybee

Pusher.

I'm seriously considering light plate covers, but I don't think I have singletons at home.

They won't fit mine here, but I think I'll get some anyway for my future NE Seattle bungalow. (continued...)

( continues...)

"Wicca/Pagan/Druid" is on their list of organized religions

Hee! Coz, oh yeah.

And a couple more quick thoughts: While the Christians who act like Pharisees are a pain, Christians who get it right are among the sweetest and best and most wonderful people to know.

And of course, if people didn't have a natural tendency to be prejudicial and cliquish and play the blame game, then we wouldn't need religion. Christianity, like anything else, is the process of learning to be holy or Christlike. So I do try to forgive those Christians who aren't there yet.

Of course, if Jesus shows up tomorrow and says, uh, no, actually, THEY got it right, and the people you like, the tolerant and charitable and generous, they got it wrong, well then, He and I will have words.

Well, it's very possible that the web pages I'm reading are wrongish, and I could find Orthodox churches / Rabbies that would convert me without forcing me to dress in a suit or avoid looking at bikini-clad women. There are books, and I plan to read them.

David, here's your first step, if you just want to pass. Stop calling them "Orthodox churches." I mean, there are Orthodox Churches, but they're Christian. Use Orthodox Synagogue, Orthodox Community, or Orthodox school of Judaism.

Honestly, I'm not sure if the girl herself would see me as marriagably Jewish if I did a Conservative conversion. She was raised Orthodox, and she agrees with a lot of their interpretations of specific laws. This is the type of thing she might very well back their views on. I'd ask, but, seriously, the fact that I'm thinking about this so hard at this point is totally weird.

Man, I don't envy your position. I hope that if/when the two of you get to the point where marriage is an unavoidable issue, you two will find your way to the right decisions.

Skipping 100+ posts to say

Stephanie, wasn't Ellie about to outgrow her first batch of Fuzzibunz?

Thanks, Plei. Yes, she is about to outgrow them anyday now and I haven't found a replacement. My old source dried up and I've been avoiding finding a new one. Thanks for the tip. I think I will order one and see how I like it. Do they work well at night?

Since I am talking about Ellie, she was 4 months old yesterday. I took some pictures. [link]

Cash, I love the name Olivia. I see what you mean about Olivia and Owen, but they don't sound very similar (to me). If the second name rhymed, or was an Ow---, then I might avoid it. Olivia is beautiful.

Gris, I have no answers for you, but if it was me, I would not be able to "say" or "convert" to something I didn't truly believe. I'd ask GF if she really wants to force someone she cares about deeply to take on a religious position/oath/faith/whatever that he doesn't truly believe and that she might not follow. It would have been harder for me to have this position when I was younger, and it involves a certain amount of going against the grain in her case, but it puts you in the really awkward position of having to be dishonest about something very important to her. Just my two cents.

My porn star name with pets name & street would be Fiddlesticks Spotswood. Although I could go with a later cat and street and be Frisky Hickory Ridge...or maybe just Frisky Ridge, which sounds more like a guy porn name.

Fuzzy St. Lawrence. Or, if "growing up" includes teen years, Fuzzy Sunset.

Let's do the porn star names thingy again! (first pet + street you grew up on)

Star Beech.

Maybe Trace Beech or Peppy Beech.