let's be honest here for a second. RT isn't exactly known for not succumbing to cliches. especially for tertiary characters. Marcos and Peter anyone? with that being said, i'm not at all surprised by the way he's been portraying the feminists.

RT isn't exactly known for not succumbing to cliches. especially for tertiary characters. Marcos and Peter anyone?

Although with Peter, if I recall, he deliberately poked fun at Veronica's cliché representation of him. VM is known for turning clichés on their head most of the time. That's not exactly happening with the feminists, though.

For the record, I told him that all feminists aren't man-hating bitches a few weeks ago, and he responded thusly:

Agreed. By and large, feminists aren't this mean-spirited, but then, by and large, frat boys aren't this morally bankrupt either. It's noir. We deal with the shady characters. The genial ones don't make for great suspects.

We deal with the shady characters. The genial ones don't make for great suspects.

Eh. Weak rationalization. You can have a shady, noir character that's fully realized and fleshed-out without resorting to stereotypes.

Oh, I agree.

Someone on my flist linked this analysis, which I like.

I think that article mischaracterizes the complaints against Veronica though. People aren't so much asking "Why is Veronica acting so nastily?" than they are stating "Veronica is acting nastily and I don't like it." Suicide, clinical depression and hard-heartedness aren't the only reactions one can have to trauma, as the article quietly suggests, and while God knows Veronica has been victimized terribly in her young life, that victimization doesn't licence her current behaviour; it just explains it. To paraphrase a sentiment I recently came across "If you allow your problems to make you bitter and hard-hearted, then YOU become the problem."

My annoyance with the depiction of feminists wasn't piqued in this episode but in previous ones. Nothing of what we learned about them in this episode struck me as perpetuating a particularly feminist stereotype; that dodgy means will be used for a political end is a stereotype shared by every politcized group.

Also, number of jokes this show has allowed its characters to make about female sexual assault: Zero. Number of jokes this show has allowed its characters to make about male sexual assault: Eight billion. (If I get hit with a barrage of instances that prove me wrong, I deserve it. But that is kind of how it feel.)

The idea of dividing the rapes between two separate but intertwined groups is so clever, it should go get a Phd in rocket science. The execution may not have exploited it to the full but it's still a whip-smart idea.

The idea of dividing the rapes between two separate but intertwined groups is so clever, it should go get a Phd in rocket science.

Well, we still don't know that the frats are responsible for the real rapes.

It's a classic stereotype of feminism, and it's not challenged in the text in any way (even while their cause is acknowledged as just).

When you have rape as the central issue -- and until last night, we didn't have any proof that some (most?) were faked, so I'd call it a very real issue -- the response to it is invariably going to be coded as feminism.

How, when Veronica's the actual feminist in the mix?

It's challenged by Veronica.

Veronica disagrees and divorces herself from the women self-identified as feminists all the way through the season. She thinks they're humorless and unreasoning.

And I don't really think the existence of Veronica as a character qualifies as the text challenging the stereotype, not in this context. Veronica's never shown much political awareness.

One thing that's worth mentioning here is that, in addition to increasing community hysteria and raping Chip Diller, the feminists have fucked so badly with the investigation that it's possible they caused some real rapes, because the rapist might have been caught already if they hadn't muddied the waters so badly.

How, when Veronica's the actual feminist in the mix?

Do you think that Nish, et al. *aren't* feminists? I absolutely think they are; I just think that they suffer from lazy characterization-via-stereotype.

Cindy-- I'm sorry if I'm being annoying and difficult. I'm hormonally cranky, and less invested in the show than you are, so I'm kind of spouting off about the one thing that really annoyed me.

Okay, the whole Logan-and-Veronica business annoyed me, too, but I don't have a real solid opinion on what they could have done to make it less annoying, because they were both being difficult. I think they're doomed, and thankful for it. I don't want to see Veronica get rescued for a while.