I laughed so hard when Dick and Veronica had their exposition scene about Chip that I was left breathless and not just in tears, but crying -- making the actual crying noises, and stuff.

Heh. "Keister egg."

What was the Lebowski shout-out? I missed a Lebowski reference? Bad Achiever, no biscuit.

I'll say I resent the idea that any cause I support has to be treated with kid gloves, and that all fictional character who are written as identifying with that cause must be upright characters.

My problem is that presenting feminists as man-haters who will do anything including lying and taking hurtful action is such a tired cliche, and a right-wing cliche at that (feminazis, anyone?).

"Keister egg."

As horrid as that attack was, that aside made me laugh like the 12-year old I am.

What was the Lebowski shout-out? I missed a Lebowski reference? Bad Achiever, no biscuit.

I just got a HUGE Lebowski vibe during the scene where Keith first goes to Patty Hearst's husband, and the assistant is all fawning and doting, and Keith is looking at all the pictures/awards on the walls and the assistant explains the gold carp (or whatever it was), and then Mr. not-Hearst comes rolling out in a wheelchair and is all distraught over his "missing" wife.

It wasn't exactly a shout-out or a reference, but it sure had a serious Lebowski feel to it. (For me.)

Heh. "Keister egg."

It took me 'til the rewind to even hear that. Dick's British accent slayed me. Scott laughed hard initially, too, but I couldn't stop. It got a little disturbing. And I'd just started to calm down, when Veronica said to Fay, about Chip that they'd really "Wrecked 'em." I didn't even feel twelve. I generally hate scatalogical humor, and in a way, I hate when Dick amuses me and pleases me so, because I am so against almost every quality he possess, but he kills me, just the same. It makes it hard to look in the mirror.

Put me in the corner that's never seen The Big Lebowski. I keep meaning to, because this show references it in about 25% of the episodes.

My problem is that presenting feminists as man-haters who will do anything including lying and taking hurtful action is such a tired cliche, and a right-wing cliche at that (feminazis, anyone?).

But Mac and Veronica are feminists, our primary feminists, and not man-haters. I don't expect to ever see a good zealot in Neptune. Regardless of cause. I thought this was the first episode that humanized Fern, Nish, and Claire, so I'm a little torn. I still need more coffee, and maybe a review, before I reach anything approaching a verdict on it. I know you (and Teppy, Consuela, Lee, etc.) aren't wrong, but I'm not sure P-C is wrong, either. I almost had the why of it fleshed out in my head, but then I started thinking about Dick and Veronica's scene again. I may need professional help.

But I expect people to do evil things in service of good causes, in Neptune. I just do. Even our moral centers aren't above it.

This is true. And I think last night went part of the way toward explaining why Nish and the others went that route -- as well as making them understand, via Veronica, that their plan was dangerous. I still don't like it, though.

I guess what I want to know is, which came first, the chicken or the egg? As P-C pointed out (here? in LJ?), Parker isn't likely to have been in on the fake rape plan, so it seems clear some of the women are actually being raped. But were the original rapes, last year, faked or real? i.e. did the feminists inspire a rapist, or did they ride his coattails to serve the cause?

I'm not sure it matters, really -- both possibilities are really distasteful. But if the first instance (a real rapist mimicking the fakes) is true, wouldn't the girls have stopped faking them? Wouldn't they have already come to the conclusion that they had taken the cause too far?

I don't understand why it's bad for fictional characters to do something especially when it's clear the show doesn't condone it in the least.

I know this is true on a logical level. On an emotional level, I hate that this is the way the first mystery of the season seems to be playing out.

My problem is that presenting feminists as man-haters who will do anything including lying and taking hurtful action is such a tired cliche, and a right-wing cliche at that (feminazis, anyone?).

Couple points: First being, I think it's a misnomer to refer to Nish, Claire and co. as feminists. Not that they're not or that they might not have some of that going on, but that's not what they've been acting on. Their target has never been men in general. It's been the Greek system, both fraternities and sororities. And however far their actions have gone, it's become clear that it's a personal vendetta, not entirely an ideological one.

Second, they've not confessed to faking any rape except Claire's, and I'm pretty sure the figure that attacked Veronica was male. So I don't think the mystery is entirely solved on that front.

This is true. And I think last night went part of the way toward explaining why Nish and the others went that route -- as well as making them understand, via Veronica, that their plan was dangerous. I still don't like it, though.

Thank you, Amy. This reminded me of my point I lost when remembering the Dick-Veronica scene. There is no justice in Neptune. We were reminded of that last night, in the MoW. The Dean couldn't even get Lamb to care about the missing woman. The only way to avenge the wrong being done to the missing woman, was to pay someone to lie about it.

There-is-no-justice-in-the-system is a big part of the show's premise, and certainly a major part of its...I want to say 'mythology' but it's not quite a mythology is it...their rules, I guess. People get crazed by the lack of justice, and do wrong, trying to right wrongs.

What happened to that young woman (I'm forgetting her first name, the Petrelli person who strolled off the roof), was damned wrong. It was evil. That frat should have been shut down, then. That's the lack of justice. Noir is sort of a vigilante's world, but often, the characters who are wronged, become obsessed with vengeance, rather than justice, and that's what trips them up. They become the monsters they sought to bring to justice.

I don't want a bunch of women being treated like sacred cows, because they're claiming the label 'feminist.' Feminism is about equality, not about revenge.

Couple points: First being, I think it's a misnomer to refer to Nish, Claire and co. as feminists. Not that they're not or that they might not have some of that going on, but that's not what they've been acting on. Their target has never been men in general. It's been the Greek system, both fraternities and sororities. And however far their actions have gone, it's become clear that it's a personal vendetta, not entirely an ideological one.

Second, they've not confessed to faking any rape except Claire's, and I'm pretty sure the figure that attacked Veronica was male. So I don't think the mystery is entirely solved on that front.

I think the figure that attacked Veronica was female, probably in big clothing. If you have the show on TiVo or tape, watch that scene from last week. When Logan looks down, and sees that it's Veronica's car alarm going off, there is a figure visible near her car. The figure looks to be blond and female. In fact, I would say it was Veronica, except that Veronica had already hit the garage floor by that time.

I don't think the mystery is solved, either. I still think Parker was actually raped.

Someone on my flist linked this analysis, which I like.

For people who missed the link when P-C provided it, it's here: [link] and is a PopGurls essay, "You've Really Got Some Minerva, Veronica Mars."

I only wish I'd written it myself. Thanks for the link, P-C.