What are the lessons of the Nazis?

I'm not sure I'm qualified to give a full answer, but I certainly think one of them is that when you have the power to marginalize, you do it with great consideration and rarely. You never allow a group of people to be considered less than human. He says that the Nazis used distortion and lies- but isn't what he said up there about other religions distortion at best?

Do you contend that things like the bio claims aren't sincere, aren't lessons, or aren't enough?

I would say, not enough for me.

The reconciliation with the Jews mightn't be one? Not enough?

Not enough.

Is there any way he can have learnt lessons from that time without becoming a good guy?

By not applying the idea of creating an "other" to hate being a bad thing to the groups he marginalizes.

When do we start Inquisition II?

Subtitle: Electric Bugaloo, or We've got Tazers Now, Weeeee!

I think that the last Pope's attempts at peace making were terrific. I think his attempts to stop condom use in AIDS-ridden sections of Africa were appalling. I've yet to see anything that suggests the next pope will be following in John Paul's steps in the former, or reversing course on the latter.

Actually, I've yet to see anything suggesting that the other candidates would be better about the Catholic church's doctrine on condoms. Therefore, not having an African Pope who might draw more people to a church that has what I consider to be an awful, life-threatening position on viral vectors--kind of a plus, for me. I don't know from transubstantiation or saint-making, but I have pretty firm opinions on people substituting religious doctrine for disease control.

It seems unlikely given that JPII appointed all but three of the college of cardinals that any candidate would be a drastic departure from his unfriendliness to gays & women. This is the position of the church. Getting 2/3 of the college to agree to someone with substantially different positions from JPII is improbable, to say the least.

This is what leads me to believe that Ratzinger is a compromise. The conservatives get their rottweiler, and the liberals get someone who probably won't be in office for long, thereby allowing them to drum up support for the next conclave. Politicking for Pope Benedict XVI's replacement has already begun, albeit behind closed doors in a subdued fashion.

DH and I are an interesting marriage theologically. He was raised Catholic, I was raised Southern Baptist, and while we both have too many issues to go back to the churches of our youth, they still impact who we are and how we view the world. He gave me permission to quote his thoughts on Ratzinger:

You know my objections to the Church -- the over-veneration of Mary, roles of women in the church, the idiocy of a celibate priesthood, birth control, and the infalliability of the pope. But I'm still a Catholic, albeit a protesting one. I've never been comfortable with the asubstantiation of communion in the Presbyterian church, never been comfortable with the Protestant selectivity about life issues, and have never been comfortable with the total disrespect for liturgy and mystery. If I had a choice, the Catholic church would look more...Anglican. But it doesn't, so I'm stuck in exile with preachers in bad suits, Tom DeLay, and a room full of Thomas Kinkade paintings and a buffet table full of tragic casseroles you would find on Iron Chef: Battle Condensed Cream of Mushroom Soup.

I miss the Mother Church, but I know that Benedict the Old-School isn't going to solve any of the issues I've had. Things in the Catholic Church move really, really slowly. Who do you think Tolkien patterned the Ents after?

The Hitler Youth and Nazi Army things don't bother me as much as what he's done lately. Even setting aside the Jerusalem Post article, John Paul II, as a Pole, had reason to hate Nazis, and he was close to Ratzinger.

I do think he's terribly intolerant in other ways, though.

My co-worker has a theory that Ratzinger was chosen because (She thinks she read somewhere that) Germans were leaving the church in droves.

I do not know if this is true or not.

See, I don't think that Ben's a worse guy for having ended up how he is and having been in Hitler Youth. He's bad enough on his own. In theory he's done more for Jews than I have.

I stopped being surprised that close exposure to one injustice (like, say, racism) doesn't cure people of honestly believing something I consider a similar injustice (like, say, homophobia). I don't mark folk down for that, or up for the converse. I consider them independently.

See, I don't think that Ben's a worse guy for having ended up how he is and having been in Hitler Youth.

I got this mixed up with the conversation in Movies for a sec and my mind went, "WHOA! What???"

Actually, I've yet to see anything suggesting that the other candidates would be better about the Catholic church's doctrine on condoms.

There were a few papabile that were open to revisiting the Church's stance on birth control and the ordination of women. Schoenborn of Austria was one, I believe.

I don't mark folk down for that, or up for the converse. I consider them independently.

I think that's entirely fair.

I think the Hitler Youth membership is the Ratzigner papacy equivalent of Jeff Gannon's gay porn career. It's that juicy little extra tidbit of backstory that makes everyone's eyes roll that much harder, but it's not really the problem.