Which would be exciting! But unfortunate.

Being unfamiliar with current comics, I can't say that canon has major implications for how the movie-Batman came across to me. But the underlying implication has always been that he is Trauma Boy, controlled or uncontrolled (or, vacillating between the poles). In the movie, he was Trauma Boy Who Has Read All The Right Self-Help Books. NSM with the vicarious brass-tacks thrill, you know?

Also, any time anybody starts using capital-letter words like Justice and Vengeance, and arguing the theory behind prancing around in tights, my brain flops over in disgust.

Not that anyone was wearing tights, but surely you aren't surprised that happened, Nutty?

And I thought he was less in control in the movie (being chibi-Bats and all) than in the books. Gaining control of the sort he does comes with the losing of the sanity.

When I say "control" throughout the above, I mean "control of the flaming id attempting to take the wheel at every waking moment and most of the sleeping ones."

Any time Batman is reasonable on the meta level for extended periods, he loses me. For me, the whole point of Batman is exploitation of a fantasy of unreasonableness. Which is why I've long thought of Batman as a narcissist -- he's helping Gotham, yeah, but really what he is doing is turning the whole city into the backdrop for his own personal psychodrama. (Which is behavior I don't like, from people, but it's awesome to watch in fiction.)

As for control of skills, I agree with you, that in the movie, his skills weren't altogether smoove, as was proper for the plot.

I've never thought of him as a big id person myself. I'm not an expert with these terms, but to me he'd be better off with more id, since it's his superego that's way out of proportion.

And by "better off" I also mean more boring and dressed more conventionally.

id = ravening selfishness module; superego = nagging/punishing module for rules-following

Basically, Gotham:Batman::self:superego -- but within Batman himself, it's a lot more complicated than the basic Freudian schema. There's plenty of id-like stuff, though, what with the taking pleasure in violence, and the wild self-aggrandizement. Some superego-like stuff, too, with the guilt and the self-punishment and the discipline, but I think that takes somewhat of a back seat to the joy of the beatdown.

I think that takes somewhat of a back seat to the joy of the beatdown

Ah, no, that's not my Batman, not at all. He's all guilt and self-punishment and discipline.

I think that takes somewhat of a back seat to the joy of the beatdown

Ah, no, that's not my Batman, not at all. He's all guilt and self-punishment and discipline.

Absolutely. No joy there. He's almost entirely superego.

Batman's sort of like Angel, except he's the one who put the curse on, and he was innocent at the time. Abnegation boy.

Which is why I loved the ending with Rachel -- I think he was starting to process what he would give up to do what he had to (his family's good name and lineage), but that really hammered it home for him. Yay! Lovely moment.

Batman is VERY Angel. Or vice versa. (I always wanted to see a S6 of Angel where Angel and Connor patrolled together in a very Batman-and-Robin sort of way.)

Abnegation Boy

Really, you think so? I guess I'm coming at it roundabout, in some ways, because my first question was not "what pleasure does Batman get from his actions?" but "What pleasures do I get from the text?" And the first and longest-lived pleasure I've gotten from the text is the fantasy of wielding unilateral power.

Now, guilt may be a reason for wielding unilateral power, but, if I'm getting egocentric pleasure from it, I bet Batman's enjoying it too. I expect there's a fair vacillation between beat the mugger to show him who's boss and beat the mugger to instruct him in the error of his ways, but I think it's a mistake to leave out the former entirely.

I think there's some rich material in mining the rage/sorrow spectrum, where Batman is concerned. But I think you have to allow that rage -- the id-like, uncontrolled impulse -- is a part of him, or else you basically have Superman dressed in black.

Which was what the movie made me think of.