you make a good point. what were the point of visions if not to avoid the Jasmine bullshit?

I always thought the visions were from Jasmine, and were part of the long-con all along: Jasmine manipulated them into the position to create the conditions for her birth into a corporeal form.

I always thought the visions were from Jasmine, and were part of the long-con all along: Jasmine manipulated them into the position to vreate the conditions for her birth into a corporeal form.

So she was the only PTB to be sending visions all along? Did she also somehow orchestrate Doyle's death?

So she was the only PTB to be sending visions all along? Did she also somehow orchestrate Doyle's death?

It would make sense, wouldn't it? Doyle dies heroically, passes the visions to Cordelia, who then acts as the "mother" to Jasmine.

That just makes the Jasmine retcon even less palatable to me.

Especially for a show which is ostensibly about defining your morality by your choices.

But they were just puppets.

It would make sense, wouldn't it? Doyle dies heroically, passes the visions to Cordelia, who then acts as the "mother" to Jasmine.

It makes sense, but it also makes me sad that every good deed they ever did would have a taint of evil to it.

indeed.

What's curious to me is that the song that Lindsey sings in the bar in Season 2 kind of maps to the Jasmine story line, or at least the Connor element of it.

But they were just puppets.

Skip tells them as much, and I know a lot of people like to write that bit off, but I think there's some truth to it. However, I think the show, and the resolution of the season, comes down ultimately on the side of free-will, as evidenced by Angel's rejection of Jasmine and, effectively, the Powers That Be.

And maybe it's not as clear cut as all that -- obviously, the Beast thought it neccesary to eradicate the Oracles, so there was insinuation that the Powers weren't all totally on board with Jasmine's actions.

It makes sense, but it also makes me sad that every good deed they ever did would have a taint of evil to it.

It always did. Angel could never balance the scales of evil, and indeed, most of the team ends up corrupted to one degree or another over the course of their mission: Wesley becomes more and more dark and unstable, Gunn gets turned into a lawyer by an evil law firm, Fred gets consumed by Illyria. Heck, after severing their ties with The Powers That Be, they take over part of Wolfram & Hart. A touch of Evil's always in the mix with them. As it is with most of us: Very little in this world is unambiguously good or evil.

What's ultimately important is the stand. Ultimately, that very human ambiguity -- a rejection of peace without free will in season four, and the rejection of servitude to evil in season five -- is what's revealed as important, and I don't see the manipulation by cosmic forces to be antithetical to that. At the end of the day, Team angel makes its own decisions.

Whether the visions were always from Jasmine or not, they still did the good things they did, they still made their own choices. They made some of those choices based on bad information, but that doesn't make the choices less good or less theirs. That said, I really hated the Cordelia-gets-possessed-by-an-evil-entity storyline so so much. I kept waiting for them to redeem it but they never did, despite the episode where Cordy gets to say good-bye.

I am on record as loving S4 and everything about it, so naturally I found the Jasmine retcon utterly brilliant.