You can kill and resurrect characters as many times as you want, in my book. As long as it counts.

I don't know how you're counting what counts. Non-trivial? Has an impact? However you're weighting the consequences of death in the Buffy narrative, is too light for me.

How do your exes feel about you?

Most of them came to first wedding. If you think that's a sore spot for me your targeting is off.

She sent her first love to hell! How is that not a thing for you?

Because he came back. What were the consequences of Angel going to hell? He was mildly bestial for three episodes. His hundreds of years of torture and insanity were barely addressed. I've always wished they had an episode where Angel had to face one of the demons who tortured him in the hell dimension. But they can't really do that because there's no coming back from that Hell as a character that anybody would recognize.

Buffy's choice is very consequential for her. I care about her character, what she chose and what it cost her. I still think Joss vitiates that by bringing Angel back.

What's a hundred of years of torture between friends?

You heard it here first--I would prefer to die than be sent hell with a stomach wound where I chilled while it healed for CENTURIES.

It's officially on my laminated "worse than death" list. Kill. Me. First.

I would also like to live a long life and not have to do that to anyone I love.

He was mildly bestial for three episodes

And tortured for hundreds. It's less in the story for you because you didn't see it, right?

If you think that's a sore spot for me your targeting is off.

I'm not trying to poke at your sore spots, Hec, I'm not a pouty twelve year old mean girl. I'm saying that if you can brush off the end of a relationship in what strikes me as one of the worst ways to end a relationship with anyone....a fly on your wall during your actual breakups might be fascinated.

That really puts it on the same plane as Wesley killing robo-Dad.

I don't see it. Robo-Dad cheapened the moment because actual Dad suffered nothing. Angel, on the other had, really did get sent to a Hell dimension for lengthy (and, from Buffy's and I assume Angel's understanding at the time, eternal) torture. I'm on the side of regarding that as worse than death, and even if I were to give the edge to death, it's still pretty clearly up there as a big frakking deal. Certainly more than enough to traumatise his girlfriend, when she willingly chooses to condemn him to it in order to save the world.

There's another question, of whether Angel's return cheapened that sacrifice. (I think it did, but it doesn't change the impact of the choice on Buffy.) That question is independent of just what the sacrifice was, of course.

I think that the Cleveland Hellmouth is mentioned in The Wish. . . and he's seen that,right?

Robo-Dad cheapened the moment because actual Dad suffered nothing.

Actually, I think it made it worse.

I'm extrapolating my own feelings here, but it's like this. There's someone you're supposed to love, and you kinda do love, but you also hate him, with real good reason. You're not the kind of person who would kill someone just because you hate them. But suddenly! The person you hate/love is about to do something really heinous and the only way you can stop him is to kill him. You're ALLOWED to kill him now! So you do; you don't even hesitate, and it feels really good, and also you realize you're an awful person for feeling good about that.

So you have the pleasure of hurting the person you hate, and the guilt for killing the person you're supposed to love.

BUT WAIT. He's not really dead! It wasn't even really him! He's alive, and what's more, he has NO IDEA that you killed him!

Well fuck. The bastard won again.

So now you still have all the guilty emotional reality of having killed him, because you DID, without the pleasure of actually having put a bullet in the bastard or purging your hate or ridding yourself of him, and he doesn't even know that you really truly would kill him; he hasn't even seen the depth of your hatred. You really are useless; you can't even kill your father right.

That's why the take-back for Wesley killing his dad was so bad. Wesley ended up with all the bad feelings of having done it, with none of the good.

They never actually explained who built Robo-Father and sent him after Wesley, did they? How exactly would one go about building a robotic duplicate of someone programmed well enough that his own son couldn't tell the difference without the cooperation of the person duplicated?

Zenkitty: Yes. That. Exactly.

sumi: I think Giles mentions "a great deal of demonic activity" in The Wish; I don't THINK he actually uses the word Hellmouth until Chosen.

Didn't alter-Buffy mention the Cleveland Hellmouth in _The Wish_?

eta: nope, not here. Found the script online and the bit i was thinking of was actually Giles: GILES (into phone/mid talk) ...yes, I understand, but it's imperative that I see her. Here. Well, when will you...? You are her watcher, I would think she'd at least check in to... Yes. I'm aware there is a great deal of demonic activity in Cleveland. It happens, you know, that Sunnydale is on a Hellmouth... it is so! (gives up) Just give her the message, if you ever see her again.

I'm pretty sure Cleveland was mentioned, but not that it was on a Hellmouth.

Okay, just looked up the transcript and it wasn't mentioned that Cleveland was on a Hellmouth. This is what was said:

Giles: Yes, I understand, but it's imperative that I see her. Here. (listens) Well... when will you? (listens) Yeah, well, you are her Watcher. I'd expect her to at least check in to... (listens) Yes, I'm aware that there's a great deal of demonic activity in Cleveland. (listens) It... Well, it happens, you know, that, that Sunnydale is on a Hellmouth. (listens) It, it is so! (listens) Well... Just... Just give her the message, if you ever see her again. (hangs up)