Was Connor dead while he was growing up then?

Was Buffy dead in "Anne"?

Walking through an interdimensional portal is not the same as having your physical body mortally wounded in our dimension.

Angel's physical body was not mortally wounded though. Wounded, yes; mortally, no.

I'm with Plei about Fred's death. With added sobbing because she was forgetting everyone and everything important to her and the memories of her bunny were stripped away from her. t yes, I still have issues about her damn toy bunny. Shut up, this tag is not closing.

I guess if he was "vampire dead" he would've dusted. I'm trying to remember the details - they just needed Angel's blood to seal the portal? So, like a bad hangnail would've worked instead of a coupe de grace?

Dag, Joss' world-building always did suck, especially when he tried to turn a plot-point on it. He only cares about the emotional resonance of the action, not whether it makes sense. (Hence...so many seasons of Angel which don't make much sense to me with the Jasmine and the Glayvin and Skip and the higher plane and the powers that be.)

I don't see how there are now two deads for a vampire. You stab them in the stomach, you might as well as have given them a paper cut. You jump through a portal, you jump through a portal.

they just needed Angel's blood to seal the portal? So, like a bad hangnail would've worked instead of a coupe de grace?

As I recall, it was the stabbination with the magic sword that stopped the invasion of demon hordes (or whatever, I'm a little fuzzy on which Apocalypse is which) and incidentally sucked Angel to Hell. I'm not sure if the idea of a portal was part of it at that stage.

I don't see how there are now two deads for a vampire.

I'm pretty sure in Joss' mind the only reason that moment is important narratively is because Buffy killed Angel.

Hmmm, I hadn't realized that so many people read that scene as Buffy giving Angel a slight shove through an interdimensional doorway on the tip of her sword.

In fairness to that point of view, I've always felt that Joss bringing Angel back with the barest bit of handwavium was his bullshittiest move. (In a tight race on BtVS with the Miracle Snow of Amends, Summers Blood and Xander called up a Broadway apocalypse.) So maybe Joss didn't think Angel was Mostly Dead?

But if I buy that Buffy didn't kill Angel then that would lower my estimation of the story considerably. Sort of to the level of "Wesley was willing to shoot his Dad to death. But it was a robot." Hence a takeback, weakass storytelling. I really don't give a shit that Buffy was willing to kill Angel. Xander and Giles were willing to kill Angel but they didn't.

I hadn't realized that so many people read that scene as Buffy giving Angel a slight shove through an interdimensional doorway on the tip of her sword.

I give you a dollar if you're actually talking about anyone here. Do you take Paypal?

She stabbed the man she loved in the gut, used his blood to seal a portal shoved him into a hell dimension to suffer for hundreds of years. That is not trivial, and to many, perhaps worse than a relatively quick death.

So when you're fair to "that point of view", I wonder which one you're talking about.

I wouldn't presume to know what was going through Joss' mind, but I certainly never got the impression we were meant to think Angel was actually dead. Nor did the people I was discussing Buffy with at the time, so far as I can recall.

Buffy knew she was sending Angel to Hell after his soul was restored to him, and had no idea that the First Evil or Powers That Be (whichever it was) would spring him after "only" about a century of subjective torture. I think that has as much impact on her story as killing him would have.