And Wes really IS the universe's bitch, isn't he? And he's SO pretty when he's suffering.

Not as much as Dean is.

runs away

Ooo! We could discuss Archetypes of Suffering or something now! It'd be FUN!

Umm.

Prettiest suffers most? Prettiest gets whammied hardest? More suffering makes one prettier?

'cause I gotta say, geeky Wes just wasn't all that pretty. Boy got his angst on though and, whoa mama, there's the pretty.

I'm rewatching Season 5 and Wesley just breaks my heart at every turn. And so very very pretty.

And Wes really IS the universe's bitch, isn't he? And he's SO pretty when he's suffering.

Not as much as Dean is.

I know not this "Dean" of which you speak.

(La la la.)

Ooo! We could discuss Archetypes of Suffering or something now! It'd be FUN!

As much as I absolutely believe that, in "5 x 5", the moment when Wes made it to the alley and saw Angel hugging Faith rather than killing her was his big Jason Todd moment*, I can't really make him map very well onto Jay otherwise.

*(Say what you will about Judd Winick [and I know this is the wrong thread -- nay, the wrong FORUM -- for this], he so completely NAILED Jason's angst when Jason confronted Batman about why the Joker was still walking around and not pushing up daisies.)

[This was all, of course, after Jason made like Buffy and clawed his way out of his own coffin when he came back from the dead after Super-Boy Prime (say it with me) PUNCHED A HOLE IN REALITY.]

Anyway, when Jason had the big hi-I'm-Red-Hood-now post-resurrection confrontation with Batman, he was all, WTF is WRONG with you, man?!? If things had been reversed, and the Joker had killed you, *I* would have scoured the planet, I wouldn't have rested until I killed him!

And I think that maps very well onto Wes in that rainy alley. That whole situation of "if things had been reversed and Faith had nearly killed YOU, *I* would have killed her if it had remotely been in my power, but since you *aren't* killing her, WTF is wrong with you, man, and oh, by the way, HELLO BETRAYAL!!!"

The Boy has pointed out that perhaps I'm a little too obsessed with fictional people.

(I also still want to read a fic where Buffy and Jason sit around and drink beer and talk about how shitty it is to claw your way out of your own coffin.)

I totally agree.

Really, Wes is sort of like Robins 1-3 rolled up in one delightful package. You can't map him to a single Robin, but you can map a lot of his moments TO Robins.

I find tortured characters happy-making. But they're all so tortured in so many different ways! Like, Dean's Emo Man Pain is SO different from Wesley's Emo Man Pain (though Wesley's Emo Man Pain is kind of a hybrid of Sam's and Dean's, if we're looking at Man Pain flavors and attempting to map/blend them).

Really, Wes is sort of like Robins 1-3 rolled up in one delightful package. You can't map him to a single Robin, but you can map a lot of his moments TO Robins.

Please to explicate and elaborate.

Like, Dean's Emo Man Pain is SO different from Wesley's Emo Man Pain (though Wesley's Emo Man Pain is kind of a hybrid of Sam's and Dean's, if we're looking at Man Pain flavors and attempting to map/blend them).

...and be specific.

Dean can be best explained by Tori Amos lyrics, Wesley by The Smiths?

More specifically, Wesley and Sam both share an awareness of how screwed up they are that's more than surface-level. They have a concept of what normal should be that's somewhat grounded in Reality Land. (And the more I think of it, the more I can see similarities between Sam and Wes, and keep losing any track of Dean in there. Weirdly, Dean is starting to map to Cordelia in my head. And that's just wrong.)

So, re: item the first, you have Robin 2's feelings of betrayal, you have Robin 3's self-appointed sidekickdom, you have Robin 1's, umm. Manly devotion? Pixie boots? Loss of the dweebdom at transition to man ho?

Dean can be best explained by Tori Amos lyrics, Wesley by The Smiths?

Intriguing. Wes does have more of Morrissey's miserablism.

you have Robin 1's, umm. Manly devotion? Pixie boots? Loss of the dweebdom at transition to man ho?

It's a tougher map because Robin 1 is supposed to evoke Robin Hood's devil may care joi de vivre etc. But Robin 1 also has the man-ho thang, and the high competence. Early Wes seems a bit more like Robin 3 to me. Scruffy!Wes gets into Robin 2 and Nightwing. But you know that turf better than I.

I am so sad that the DC Universe started to suck, because I miss Plei's Batman/Robin analyses SO MUCH.