Dawn ,'Beneath You'
Is it better the second time around? Or the third? Or tenth? This is the place to come when you have a burning desire to talk about an old episode that was just re-run.
Of course, he also effectively traded Fred's immortal soul for that happy life, which he might have balked at had he known in advance that was a possible consequence.
Matt, what's your tag line from? It cracks me up every time I see it.
It's a quote from Sgt. Kabukiman, NYPD.
I think he'd willingly trade all the MoG's lives for one happy Connor life. Which is what he did.
Hey now, Lorne survived.
It's hard for me to evaluate because, as I think we've discussed before, the deal Angel took in "Home" was different from the deal they turned out to have in season 5. But either way, he was the most adamant from the start that it was a bad idea, and I don't think his opinion about the badness changed. So I don't think he went in thinking, "We'll be a fifth column and bring the organization down from within, mwah ha ha!" He took a soul-sucking job because it was the only way to provide for his kid.
Also, regarding his decision at the end of the series. To me, it looks like trying to prove the "if nothing that you do matters, all that matters is what you do" theme,
Which decision do you mean? They succeeded in destroying the Circle, and that seemed like more than a symbolic victory. What happened in the alley was a consequence of winning.
Hey now, Lorne survived.
Well, that's true. But Lorne wasn't happy about it.
He took a soul-sucking job because it was the only way to provide for his kid.
And that's a noble thing to do, right? Right?
And that's a noble thing to do, right? Right?
Darn tootin'.
Absolutely.
For some reason, TNT is having an overnight Angel marathon tonight -- it starts at Midnight. (In five minutes!)
He took a soul-sucking job because it was the only way to provide for his kid.
And that's a noble thing to do, right? Right?Mmm. I don't know. It was all he could do, because of who he is. If Angel had done otherwise, I would have felt like I was watching a different show.
This is where the dread C word comes in handy. Angel isn't a hero--never was. He got involved in fighting demons, because he was in love with Buffy, and Buffy (a hero, not generally a champion) fought demons. He stayed involved (see I Will Remember You) not to save the world, but because if he stayed human, Buffy would have died.
In Home, he had to be him, or something. He had to save the person he loved. The other people he saved, he saved because they needed him to save him. His is less of a crusade than the slayer's life.
He took a soul-sucking job because it was the only way to provide for his kid.
Oh, I guess I wasn't clear. That's exactly how I see it, too.
I just thought, like Anne pointed out, that from a different way of looking at things, it's not surprising that the show, based on a vampire using his vampire's strengths to fight evil, has taken that step, as well.
Which decision do you mean?
To even try to fight the cirlce, which, just like you pointed out, had worked.
They succeeded in destroying the Circle, and that seemed like more than a symbolic victory. What happened in the alley was a consequence of winning.
Yup. And charging that is also a desicion, in and of itself.
Angel isn't a hero--never was.
I'm afraid I'm completely ignorant in the definitions of things. What makes somebody a hero?
I'm not sure my differentiating between the terms is that useful for anyone who isn't me. But I see a champion as someone who is fighting for a particular cause (be that another person, or some other reason dear to him). To me, a hero is fighting because of the rightness of it.
Buffy has this whole mystical-bloodline thing going. She was endowed with her powers, in order to fight evil. She was chosen, and when called, she answered the call, even though she didn't want to, because it was the right thing to do.
Angel got his powers because he gave into evil. When he was transformed by the Gypsy Curse, he was no longer happy doing evil. That's why he stopped. He didn't start fighting evil because evil is evil. He started fighting evil because he fell in love with Buffy.
That's why he started, but don't you think he got over that?