Raq, just think of it as the same phenomenon where angry housewives approach soap opera stars in supermarkets and hit them for cheating on their favorite characters. No ability to perceive the distinction between real life and fiction.

See, this is even weird to me, because don't you watch soaps to see people cheat?

But, yeah, I get the point. It just makes my brain all hurty.

See, this is even weird to me, because don't you watch soaps to see people cheat?

I watch 'em for the reaction shots. I figure there's an unexplored connection between daytime soaps and the world of mime.

What was in it?

I think a cattle prod. Or a stun gun. Anyway, toys that indicated that Spike did not play nice.

Also rope, IIRC, or chains. Restrain-y things, in any case.

Also rope, IIRC, or chains. Restrain-y things, in any case.

Handcuffs I think, or manacles.

I didn't see it that way, but I haven't watched Buffy in a while, so I might just be in the wrong headspace for this.

Didn't see what that way? I don't think that of Buffy/Spike. It reads to me that that sentiment at least fed into that lj entry that was linked at the fw thread. I stopped reading and started skimming about here...

It puzzled me a lot at the time, and still does. I can fully understand being completely 100% pissed off at Buffy - I was too - but how did that lead people to the sudden conclusion that Spike was gay? o.O If anything, Buffy was the one showing a lack of interest in a heterosexual relationship on the show.

Then there was a bunch of stuff about how Christianity invented black and white world views, and guilt. Then there was this:

So what BtVS did was force a fundamentalist viewpoint onto a bunch of women who, rather innocently, just thought Spike was sexy as all hell. Which he was. The writers became increasingly frustrated over time because they weren't instilling their own dogmatic beliefs into the viewers - people still liked Spike, contrary to the black-and-white worldview the writers were trying to force us into - so they lashed out with the strongest weapon they had, the weapon used by so many religions over the years: Guilt. Rape is an unforgivable crime...except it was obvious to a vast portion of people that the attempted rape wasn't about rape; it was a wild and desperate attempt to manipulate them into feeling the way the writers were trying to order them to feel. Hence, the backlash.

"Buffy's a bitch because she didn't wuv Spike enough, and Spike didn't really attempt to rape Buffy. The writers made him do it. He never would have done that on his own," load o crap.

You know what? I do think the writers made Spike do it, and if that makes me a bad fan or a stupid fan or a blinded-by-Marsters'-cheekbones redemptionista, so be it.

The show spent well over two seasons building Spike the woobie, Spike the underloved, Spike the fluffy puppy whose fangs didn't even work anymore. I rewatched S5 fairly recently, and it is impossible (at least for me) to watch those episodes and not be sympathetic to Spike as a flawed person who is trying to do good -- not always without ulterior motives, and not without backsliding, but ultimately ending on the side of good nonetheless.

And then Marti Noxon, or whoever, decided we weren't supposed to feel that way, that Spike was Still Bad. And to prove it, they made him do something unforgiveable. I can't throw it out as part of the show's canon, but I can say that I feel it was out of character for Spike at that point in the series.

As I said, I think that essay overstates its case considerably. But I think there is a grain of accuracy, at least in this way.

(However, I never saw Buffy as a bitch in S6.)

Didn't see what that way?

That meant "I don't feel like fighting about this, so whatever." But I've thought about it now, and ... I do feel like fighting about it. Just a little. Sorry.

I do think the writers made Spike do it

What did Spike do that the writers didn't make him do, really.

I think that "crappy writing" or "out of character" might be what they meant, but they used crazy talk, and that makes me think they're ... well, Spike doesn't exist. He's not an entity that's been done wrong by anyone who actually does exist, and in fact gets paid to jerk his puppet strings.

And then Marti Noxon, or whoever, decided we weren't supposed to feel that way, that Spike was Still Bad. And to prove it, they made him do something unforgiveable. I can't throw it out as part of the show's canon, but I can say that I feel it was out of character for Spike at that point in the series

I'm not going to try to talk you out of your point of view, but I saw him as Still Bad- certainly in Crush, and a lot of season 6 while I didn't see him as "EVIL!" he was clearly, at least to me, bad. But, part of the reason I looooooooove season 6 was that while Spike was still bad I could see why in Buffy's state of loss and dispair she kept running back to him, going to him made her feel worse, so she'd go back to him, which made her feel even worse. And yeah, the writers were showing us a fucked up relationship. Being with someone who makes you feel bad about yourself is a bad relationship.

As far as the rape goes. I think it's totally in character for someone who has only ever loved (even family love) obsessively, who doesn't (even with a soul) feel remorse, and who thinks he has some special connection- in a way that she belongs to him. I also think getting the soul was about feeling remorse- not that he did feel it, but that he wanted to feel it.

When I watched the rape, I thought "No, the Spike in my head still would do evil things -- just not that one, not now, not here." But, I figured, if they wanted him well tarnished, that's a quick and easy way.

But they didn't, and I think they overshot the gravity, especially when I heard them talk in interviews.

I don't know if I'm speaking from a prevalent frame of reference, but I thought rape was the wrong scale. To get past that, to get to feelings that ME seemed to want from me, I had to pretend the attempt hadn't happened. I couldn't integrate it in how he was presented later, with the reactions they seemed to be reaching for.