but then, why do you an Orb of Thessula to do the spell. If the orb contains a soul, then does the one in the orb replace the "original soul"? and on the other hand, in Angel, why did they need the particular vessel to restore Angels's soul. It wasn't until they released the soul by breaking the vessel that the soul was able to be restored. Why didn't they just use a random Orb of Thessula?
The orb doesn't contain the soul. It's a tool used in the magicks, possibly as a conduit, but it doesn't come pre-packaged with soul inside. Some magicks need a gourd. Sometimes, magicks need an orb. Sometimes, there are amulets. The soul restoration that the gypsies did and Willow replicated used an orb.
The other time (on A:ts), Angel's soul was put in the breakable glass carafe or whatever, it was so that later it could be smashed. It was part of the evil plan. The smashing isn't typically part of the curse, I don't think. I don't remember it smashing in
Becoming.
It was destroyed, or burnt or something at the end, though wasn't it? I remember willow collapsing after the spell and them looking down at the ingredients. I think.
I'll have to watch again. I don't think so. I think it just went dark. We're working our way through from the beginning. We just watched
Passion
last night, so I should see it pretty soon.
In
Passion,
when Jenny said she wanted the orb, the BBS referred it as a spirit vault for the rituals of the undead. But I don't think he meant souls resided in it before any of the rituals, because later, when Angelus surprises Jenny in the classroom, he notes the orb, and says, "If memory serves, this is supposed to summon a person's soul from the ether--store it until it can be transferred."
So, I think it goes like this... The spellcaster starts the Restoration spell. Somewhere in there, the soul is summoned from wherever in the spirit world (the ether is as good a term as any) and it is in the orb, until the spellcaster gets to the part of the spell where the soul is restored into its owner.
From the
Becoming II
script, the incantation begins:
[Oz] Quod perditum est, invenietur. (What was lost, shall be found.)
[Willow] Not dead, nor not of the living. . .
Now, the script doesn't show it, but I know she says, "Spirits of the inter-regnum I call" or something quite similar.
Later on, after Willow is seemingly possessed by something else (I vote Vengeance) that takes over for her, and starts incanting in Romanian, the script reads:
[Willow] Te implor Doamne, nu ignora accasta rugaminte! Lasa orbita
sa fie vasul care-I va transporta sufletul la el!
(I call on you, Gods, do not ignore this supplication! Let the
orb be the vessel to carry his soul to him!)
The script only notes that the glow disappears from the orb, after the spell is finished. I don't recall it being smashed, but it's possible. Still, I don't see an indication that the soul came as part of the orb. It seems to me it's spoken of as a tool in the process.
I really do think it is Liam's soul that is restored, because it's a "restoration." It is never spoken of in less ownership laden terms. It always seems to be "his soul" as opposed to "a soul". But, there's enough wiggle room in the canon, that if the'd ever wanted to change that, they could have. It's not like any of the narrators (Hi Narrator) are perfectly reliable.
Actually, in "Becoming, Pt. 2" the orb vanishes as its glow fades, leaving the little red velvet pillow/holder unoccupied.
Actually, in "Becoming, Pt. 2" the orb vanishes as its glow fades, leaving the little red velvet pillow/holder unoccupied.
I KNEW something happened to the orb!
It appears that eventually, sire-lines get watered down, and the further a newbie vamp is from the original sire of his line, the less powerful (and cool) s/he is as a vampire.
Source? I can believe that was established, but it's news to me (so I'm assuming it's from something that happened on Buffy).
Matt's probably heard this nine thousand times by now, but briefly: I think there's a third thing besides body and soul. We used "anima" over at TWoP, though essence works too. I need there to be a third thing partly for my own theological satisfaction, but for support I'll mention ghosts. Which despite being bodiless, have memories and personalities and wills, and can be evil or good (so they seem like something besides particularly energetic souls).
I think it also makes body-swapping hijinks slightly easier to deal with. With or without a soul, Angel remembers who and what he is. But when Marcus swapped bodies with him, Marcus had to figure out that he was in a vampiric body. So, more than just their souls switched places.
Source? I can believe that was established, but it's news to me (so I'm assuming it's from something that happened on Buffy).
The whole piece isn't canon. Some is guesswork based on what we did see. I can't remember if there was ever any canon on this, or not. I wrote it more than two years ago. I suspect I kept that to "it appears" because I didn't have a canonical reference for that.
Matt's probably heard this nine thousand times by now, but briefly: I think there's a third thing besides body and soul. We used "anima" over at TWoP, though essence works too. I need there to be a third thing partly for my own theological satisfaction, but for support I'll mention ghosts. Which despite being bodiless, have memories and personalities and wills, and can be evil or good (so they seem like something besides particularly energetic souls).
I mostly agree. I think early BtVS canon hinted that soul was what animates the body, but I think they got away from that. They definitely strayed from it in the 'verse once they had the souless boy on Angel. The closest thing we can know is that the soul leaves the body when the life force does. Vampires retain the minds (memories, personalities) of their victim-hosts, but maybe that's something peculiar to vampyrism. The soul could either be sentient or non-sentient, but attached to anima which is sentient.
Well, vamping starts before the body's dead, when the sire feeds the vamp-to-be his blood. Possibly, that's where the personality imprint occurs, while the vamp-to-be is dying and making the transformation to full vamp.
