( continues...) and when the slayer essence is in an active state (seemingly always), it does not subdue the host's mind, nor does it subdue the host's soul. Instead, it appears to work in concert with both, while simultaneously strengthening the human body. We can consider this type of non-corporeal demon to be non-evil, merely based on the fact alone that it doesn't seek to destroy or takeover its host, but rather, it augments same. It does not feed off of the host when it dies, but rather leaves it for another live host, and continues its mission. The only caution that we need to remember is that because this sort of demon imbues its host with great power, it also leaves the host open to corruption from that power.
More on Souls, Regret, and a guy called Spike
When I mentioned discussing Spike, it wasn't so much fitting him into this framework as discussing points people had brought up a few days ago, about Spike feeling regret and/or remorse after the rape attempt.
I do think regret is possible for a soulless creature. Regret is simply wishing you hadn't done what you did. I think what's impossible (generally) for a 'verse soulless creature, is to have that regret come from a place of remorse. I think Spike actually also felt remorse at the end of Seeing Red, but I think I have a reason why, in Spike's unique case, this impossibility was possible.
To those humans who let it be, the soul is a motivating factor when choosing courses of action. William's human mind lived for its first X years with a soul. So (from canon) his memories, personality, emotions were developed when he had a soul, and that same mind then operated Bad!Spike's body. Bad!Spike still knew right from wrong, he just didn't care that he was bad. In fact, he loved being bad, because not only did he no longer suffer pangs of conscience, but because the essence that was now animating and motivating him, was an evil essence. When he was bad, Spike was satisfying the force that motivated him and the force grew stronger.
A (regular) vampire is a killing machine in a human body. The vampire essence animates and motivates that which at one time was at least informed and somewhat motivated (and possibly animated) by the soul. The vampire uses the body to satisfy its essence, which has a powerful bloodlust (I use bloodlust not just in the nutritive sense, but in a desire to kill, cause pain, do evil). The bloodlust grows stronger each time it's satisfied. It motivates the host to do more evil things.
Then Spike got chipped with a chip developed by/under a psych. professor whose speciality was operant conditioning (canon - The Freshman). Although at first he continued to try to satisfy the bloodlust, all the ways that were formerly most fun for him to satisfy the bloodlust, now caused him pain. So although he has to continue to drink some sort of blood to keep the corpse from deteriorating to the point where he's a living skeleton (canon - Pangs), the driving force of the vampire-essence is shackled by the host it has chosen, because the mind won't let him cause the body pain, regardless of how much the essence likes to make mayhem.
So what's left to motivate the actions of the body? The mind. This is the same mind that was formed inside a body that included the human soul gift-with-purchase. In letting the mind be his primary motivation, the motivation that came from a bloodlust, eventually started to weaken. In addition to his mind's rational decision not to commit acts that will cause him physical pain, once Spike falls for Buffy, his mind also has emotional reasons not to do wrong.
Now when Chipped!Soulless!InLove!Spike does evil (because even humans with souls, even good humans with good souls do the wrong thing, occasionally) he doesn't feel guilty about it, but he doesn't want Buffy to know about. And many of his evil acts seem to come more from the inability to care about what's truly good, than they do from a strong desire to do evil.
Then he does evil to her. And because among his primary (continued...)
( continues...) motives, there is the desire to make her happy, and because his experiences are being filtered through a mind that was formed when a soul was present, Spike does the impossible; he feels remorseful, he feels a conviction that what he did was wrong, and a very bad thing. He doesn't only feel this selfishly (in other words, he doesn't only feel this because he know looks bad in her eyes), he feels remorse because he cares that he did a wrong thing to Buffy and it hurt her. I think it is memory that makes this possible. Spike certainly should be able to remember the feelings of remorse William had, whenever he (William) did something wrong. And in being able to remember it—because the bloodlusting, evil essence is now shackled—he also actually feels it.
I disagree with the posters who thought it would have been better to see him attempt to redeem (this season) without a soul. I think that's what we have been seeing, probably since Intervention, and the story we were told about that is that it is impossible. When Spike had the moments of regret and remorse, after the attempted rape, he hit his glass ceiling. He was never going to get closer to an attempt at redemption than that, unless he had the necessary tools, namely, a soul and the conviction of conscience that it brings. But as I stated in the long series of soul posts, we all have a lot of real life opinions about the soul, and that certainly comes into play in my reaction.
That's a big post. None of my friends have a post that big ...
Thanks, Plei. I actually have that marked in my favorites, because I was so tickled when you saved it. But I had used strike out text in the original series of posts which didn't transfer to that page, so I later saved it and cleaned up that part, in my lj.
(Note to self: It is saved on 5/14/04 in the cindyamb journal)
That's a big post. None of my friends have a post that big ...
*sniff*
You saying we ain't friends?
but then, why do you an Orb of Thessula to do the spell. If the orb contains a soul, then does the one in the orb replace the "original soul"? and on the other hand, in Angel, why did they need the particular vessel to restore Angels's soul. It wasn't until they released the soul by breaking the vessel that the soul was able to be restored. Why didn't they just use a random Orb of Thessula?
The orb doesn't contain the soul. It's a tool used in the magicks, possibly as a conduit, but it doesn't come pre-packaged with soul inside. Some magicks need a gourd. Sometimes, magicks need an orb. Sometimes, there are amulets. The soul restoration that the gypsies did and Willow replicated used an orb.
The other time (on A:ts), Angel's soul was put in the breakable glass carafe or whatever, it was so that later it could be smashed. It was part of the evil plan. The smashing isn't typically part of the curse, I don't think. I don't remember it smashing in
Becoming.
It was destroyed, or burnt or something at the end, though wasn't it? I remember willow collapsing after the spell and them looking down at the ingredients. I think.
I'll have to watch again. I don't think so. I think it just went dark. We're working our way through from the beginning. We just watched
Passion
last night, so I should see it pretty soon.
In
Passion,
when Jenny said she wanted the orb, the BBS referred it as a spirit vault for the rituals of the undead. But I don't think he meant souls resided in it before any of the rituals, because later, when Angelus surprises Jenny in the classroom, he notes the orb, and says, "If memory serves, this is supposed to summon a person's soul from the ether--store it until it can be transferred."
So, I think it goes like this... The spellcaster starts the Restoration spell. Somewhere in there, the soul is summoned from wherever in the spirit world (the ether is as good a term as any) and it is in the orb, until the spellcaster gets to the part of the spell where the soul is restored into its owner.
From the
Becoming II
script, the incantation begins:
[Oz] Quod perditum est, invenietur. (What was lost, shall be found.)
[Willow] Not dead, nor not of the living. . .
Now, the script doesn't show it, but I know she says, "Spirits of the inter-regnum I call" or something quite similar.
Later on, after Willow is seemingly possessed by something else (I vote Vengeance) that takes over for her, and starts incanting in Romanian, the script reads:
[Willow] Te implor Doamne, nu ignora accasta rugaminte! Lasa orbita
sa fie vasul care-I va transporta sufletul la el!
(I call on you, Gods, do not ignore this supplication! Let the
orb be the vessel to carry his soul to him!)
The script only notes that the glow disappears from the orb, after the spell is finished. I don't recall it being smashed, but it's possible. Still, I don't see an indication that the soul came as part of the orb. It seems to me it's spoken of as a tool in the process.
I really do think it is Liam's soul that is restored, because it's a "restoration." It is never spoken of in less ownership laden terms. It always seems to be "his soul" as opposed to "a soul". But, there's enough wiggle room in the canon, that if the'd ever wanted to change that, they could have. It's not like any of the narrators (Hi Narrator) are perfectly reliable.
Actually, in "Becoming, Pt. 2" the orb vanishes as its glow fades, leaving the little red velvet pillow/holder unoccupied.
Actually, in "Becoming, Pt. 2" the orb vanishes as its glow fades, leaving the little red velvet pillow/holder unoccupied.
I KNEW something happened to the orb!
