I wrote up a whole big thing on soul canon (and my guestimates added in) in the Jossverse, once. Let me see if I can find it. Plei has a copy on one of her sites, but it's unproofed. I think I saved a somewhat edited copy, somewhere.

It's pretty clear that the Gypsy ritual has restored the same soul to Angel each time it's been used, though. I think the simplest assumption to proceed from is that it calls up the soul that's supposed to go with the body.

edit: x-post with Cindy.

Neither Angel nor Darla seemed to have any memories from their souls' disembodied states, but Buffy did remember her afterlife.

Cindy: [link]

I would assume so, but from what we've been shown Liam was pretty much a bastard and re-souled Angel never struck me as such

well, you can give him some credit for growing up.

It's pretty clear that the Gypsy ritual has restored the same soul to Angel each time it's been used, though. I think the simplest assumption to proceed from is that it calls up the soul that's supposed to go with the body.

but then, why do you an Orb of Thessula to do the spell. If the orb contains a soul, then does the one in the orb replace the "original soul"? and on the other hand, in Angel, why did they need the particular vessel to restore Angels's soul. It wasn't until they released the soul by breaking the vessel that the soul was able to be restored. Why didn't they just use a random Orb of Thessula?

These theories were laid out sometime during BtVS Season 7/A:ts S4, sometime after BtVS's Selfless was broadcast. There may have been new information added to the canon afterwards. There are typos, etc., and someday I'll fix them.

Souls -N- Stuff...

I've been fanwanking/thinking about this way too much since I first saw Jenny planning to summon Angel's soul from the ether, in Passion.

The Jossverse suffers from a lack of terms as much as/more than it suffers from a lack of a firm definition of soul. My guess is, if they have a show or even Jossverse bible, it is neglected, as canon seems to veer wildly on everything from souls, to when vampires need an invite, to just what differentiates a hellgod (or Trollgod?) from a powerful demon. Anytime I've read Joss's posts, or interviews about the 'verse definition of soul, it's been in terms of the soul of a human. He has loosely equated it with conscience, and either said, or implied that said equation is for lack of a better term. Still, I don't think we've seen any contradiction of that point of canon, even in Spike (but more on him, in another post, another time).

Although D'Hoffryn referred to his price for reversing Anya's frat-house-slaughter as, "The life, and soul, of a Vengeance Demon," demons tend toward the dramatic when discussing the metaphysical, so for conversation's sake, it is simpler to add the term essence as a metaphysical descriptor in the 'verse. Human essence can then be called soul. Referring to demons as having essence rather than soul is simpler, because fans have innumerable, personal, real life definitions of soul, frequently informed by individual religious beliefs (or dis-), and many fans do not seem to differentiate between types of souls (i.e. human, vampire, vengeance demon, Mmm Fashnik, etc.).

As long as all of the 'verse demons were evil, the term soul and the definition like-a-conscience, was sufficient. Whistler, Doyle, Lorne and their ilk have muddied our mythological waters. This is an attempt to filter them. Although some of these terms, definitions, and explanations are non-canonical, they draw on canon, don't contradict it. At worst, they attempt to fill it in, and wank it a little so that it works.

'Verse Humans

Humans are a combination of a mortal body and an essence. The essence is defined as a soul. Canon implies the human soul is eternal, because Liam was killed in the 1700s and Willow was able to restore his soul to the vampire Angelus in the 1900s. Except for soulless!human boy in A:ts - who (like the very existence of Connor), is a case of SOMETHING GONE WONKY, and doesn't have to count in the rules of the 'verse, soul is gift with purchase of human body. Soul and body packaged together, but able to be separated, one from the other.

It seems that if the soul isn't what animates the human body (and except for soulless!human boy, I think early-in-series vampire canon hinted that it does), at the very least, the soul flees/is forced out, if/when the life-force that normally animates the body is drained/pushed out and replaced by vampyric life-force. It may be that since it is most likely eternal, human soul cannot tolerate being in something dead.

*Evil Non-corporeal Demons in the 'Verse - Type 1

Vampire essence is non-corporeal. It is transmitted almost like a virus, and seems to mutate as it replicates in the new host, depending on the mind (personality, emotions, motives, memories, tastes) of said host. It also seems to depend, or is affected by the sire-line from whence it came. It appears that eventually, sire-lines get watered down, and the further a newbie vamp is from the original sire of his line, the less powerful (and cool) s/he is as a vampire.

Type 1 Evil non-corporeal demons need the human host to be dead in order to infect it. This fact alone makes them evil, and their subsequent behaviors are oriented toward evil as well. Eyghon is another example (continued...)

( continues...) of this type. From what information is available on Eyghon, he seems to be a unique demon that jumps from host to host, rather than spreading amongst the human-corpse population, replicating and mutating. In other words, Eyghon's infection of the human-corpse host is more akin to a parasite than virus. The demon in Puppet Show was most likely another variation, but rather than infecting one host, its quest involved gathering ideal parts from many hosts and constructing its own.

When the soul leaves, and the corpse is reanimated through vampyrism, the new creature is oriented to prefer, be motivated by, seek out and revel in evil because that which animates it is evil. We do not have to consider Chipped!Spike here, because when the Initiative implanted the chip in Spike, same was the specific cause of yet another SOMETHING GONE WONKY, and all that happened to and within him—up until he was re-ensouled—does not relate to either to Angelus—>Angel, nor does it relate to any other vampire. What happened to Spike is interesting, though. And probably tomorrow [lj edit--see below, this post is a year old and that "tomorrow" has already come and gone], I'll blather at length about that, rather than this. Similarly, we do not have to consider Soul!Spike or Soul!Angel here, because they too, are unique cases of SOMETHING GONE WONKY. If/when I ever get to the Spike post, I don't expect any of it to contradict this, because the wonky things that have happened to him, open up whole new canonical sandboxes.

Non-corporeal Demons in the 'Verse - Type 2

These are the non-corporeal demons that don't need the host to be dead at the time of infestation. They seem able to enter the human vessel while it is alive, and co-exist with (and overwhelm or at least knock out) the human soul, during their hostile takeover of the body. In parlance common to both religions and the horror genre, these types of demons are the type which possess a human. They can be exorcised/magicked or otherwise killed/driven out. See The Pack as one example. Lycanthropy most likely falls under this category as well. The Burrower demon in A:ts 1:2, Lonely Hearts is also a variation on this type, in that it possesses a live human host, but by doing so, it slowly forces the life-force out of same.

NOTES on IMMORTALITY: In (I think) 206 [lj edit--when written, now we've had 144 episodes of BtVS and 109 episodes of A:ts, as of Wednesday, that will be 110, for a grand total of 254] 'verse episodes total, we've never been told that 'verse demons are mortal, so I am going to discuss this as if all 'verse demons are immortal, with this disclaimer: There may be some undocumented demon species that are mortal.

Immortal does not equal eternal. In terms of the 'verse, an immortal life-form does not die unless/until you kill them. Some are super-immortal (like vampires and Zombie!Pat). Super-immortals require a specific kind of killing. Smash its eyes, smash the amulet etc. Eternal things, although they may be driven out, cannot be killed. They do not die. Ever. Never. Ever.

Corporeal Demons in the 'Verse

Unlike 'verse human souls, corporeal 'verse demons do not have a separable part which orients and defines them in terms of morality, mission, and powers. This, in part, may be why vampires don't appear to eat and/or sire demons and we never see Demon X possessed by Demon Y. There may be no way for the vampire to kick out the motivating essence of a corporeal demon. Plus, being immortal, they're probably old and taste at least gamey, if not downright yucky. There are a multitude of species in the 'verse, and appearance, powers, mission and morality seems to vary accordingly. That these factors vary—that we have good, bad and seemingly neutral corporeal demons—is not problematic, and whether or not they have souls is no longer the question, nor is it a cause for argument. None of them have a human soul.

Vengeance Demons - A Special Type or More of the (continued...)

( continues...) Same?

How can we fit what we know about Vengeance Demons into this framework? Despite our frequent contact with Vengeance Demons, all we know about the conversion of human to Vengeance Demon is that D'Hoffryn makes it so. The show has never explained whether or not he kills the humans and/or sucks out their human souls before he metamorphoses them into a common Vengeance Demon, or if Vengeance Demonhood is more a classic and clear-cut case of possession. Still, it matters not.

D'Hoffryn appears to be of a separate species from his employees such as Halfrek and Anyanka. Although we do have no canon on this, and it could be argued he is merely physically different and more powerful than they are, only due to the fact that he's been a VD for so long (see The Master versus any vamp of his line and/or Kakistos), for the purpose of this discussion, D'Hoffryn is classified as a standard Corporeal Demon. If the He's-like-The-Master argument is made, a reasonable counter to it might be: No, he is a separate species, because he is able to turn humans into VDs and back again. Thus, this discussion will assume that D'Hoffryn (and probably Lloyd), unlike Halfrek and Anyanka, was never a human. It is probable that D'Hoffryn's species has the power to physically transform (and morally orient) a human host into a VD, imbue it with powers that enable a VD to do its job (and remove or restrict same, at will).

Earlier, I said that it matters not how Aud turned into Anyanka. I say this, because whether or not Aud was killed or just changed, whether or not Aud's human soul was banished to the ether or just subdued by Vengeance Demon Essence, when Anyanka lost her Vengeance Demonhood (both times), her humanity (living body + gift-with-purchase soul that serves as conscience) was restored to her.

In Halfrek's case, D'Hoffryn (at least according to the script, I didn't have access to a transcript) said, "The proverbial scales must balance. In order to restore the lives of the victims, the fates require a sacrifice."

Keeping that in mind, the conversion of ordinary human into humanoid Vengeance Demon (the Anyanka, Halfrek type) must give D'Hoffryn dominion over the lives and essence of his converts. He has the power to snuff out their physical life (we assume, because Halfrek left our realm via immolation, which seems damned permanent) and essence as well.

All of this allows for the formation of informed hypotheses about many kinds of 'verse creatures. While the human gift-with-purchase package (body + separable soul) leaves the body vulnerable to hostile take-over by non-corporeal demons, and the (comparable) weakness of the human body leaves it mortally vulnerable to attacks from stronger creatures of all sorts (demons, animals, stronger humans), humanity may well be the preferable form when eternity is taken into consideration. Immortality is great, as long as you don't come across something with the power to/knowledge on how to kill you. But is seems as though when demons die, every single bit of them is dead.

For reference, consider Darla. She was a human who was sired into vampyrism by The Master. When she was staked in the BtVS episode Angel, she wasn't only merely dead, she was really and sincerely dead. All the powers of Hell (well, okay, all the powers of Wolfram and Hart) couldn't (or at least didn't) bring her back as a vampire. Although her human mind retained the memories and feelings of her vampire unlife, but she was again animated (by or and had) the human soul and it took a whole separate re-siring to return her to vampyrism. Contrast that with the restoration of Angel's soul and Buffy's "killing" of Angel in Becoming. Once he was re-ensouled, even sending Angel off to Acathla-Hell for a couple of centuries didn't kill off, or even remove his soul, it just tormented it.

Finally (are you cheering?) it is quite likely that slayer-essence is an entirely separate sort of demon essence which, like non-corporeal demon type 2, needs a live host. However, when infected (continued...)

( continues...) and when the slayer essence is in an active state (seemingly always), it does not subdue the host's mind, nor does it subdue the host's soul. Instead, it appears to work in concert with both, while simultaneously strengthening the human body. We can consider this type of non-corporeal demon to be non-evil, merely based on the fact alone that it doesn't seek to destroy or takeover its host, but rather, it augments same. It does not feed off of the host when it dies, but rather leaves it for another live host, and continues its mission. The only caution that we need to remember is that because this sort of demon imbues its host with great power, it also leaves the host open to corruption from that power.

More on Souls, Regret, and a guy called Spike

When I mentioned discussing Spike, it wasn't so much fitting him into this framework as discussing points people had brought up a few days ago, about Spike feeling regret and/or remorse after the rape attempt.

I do think regret is possible for a soulless creature. Regret is simply wishing you hadn't done what you did. I think what's impossible (generally) for a 'verse soulless creature, is to have that regret come from a place of remorse. I think Spike actually also felt remorse at the end of Seeing Red, but I think I have a reason why, in Spike's unique case, this impossibility was possible.

To those humans who let it be, the soul is a motivating factor when choosing courses of action. William's human mind lived for its first X years with a soul. So (from canon) his memories, personality, emotions were developed when he had a soul, and that same mind then operated Bad!Spike's body. Bad!Spike still knew right from wrong, he just didn't care that he was bad. In fact, he loved being bad, because not only did he no longer suffer pangs of conscience, but because the essence that was now animating and motivating him, was an evil essence. When he was bad, Spike was satisfying the force that motivated him and the force grew stronger.

A (regular) vampire is a killing machine in a human body. The vampire essence animates and motivates that which at one time was at least informed and somewhat motivated (and possibly animated) by the soul. The vampire uses the body to satisfy its essence, which has a powerful bloodlust (I use bloodlust not just in the nutritive sense, but in a desire to kill, cause pain, do evil). The bloodlust grows stronger each time it's satisfied. It motivates the host to do more evil things.

Then Spike got chipped with a chip developed by/under a psych. professor whose speciality was operant conditioning (canon - The Freshman). Although at first he continued to try to satisfy the bloodlust, all the ways that were formerly most fun for him to satisfy the bloodlust, now caused him pain. So although he has to continue to drink some sort of blood to keep the corpse from deteriorating to the point where he's a living skeleton (canon - Pangs), the driving force of the vampire-essence is shackled by the host it has chosen, because the mind won't let him cause the body pain, regardless of how much the essence likes to make mayhem.

So what's left to motivate the actions of the body? The mind. This is the same mind that was formed inside a body that included the human soul gift-with-purchase. In letting the mind be his primary motivation, the motivation that came from a bloodlust, eventually started to weaken. In addition to his mind's rational decision not to commit acts that will cause him physical pain, once Spike falls for Buffy, his mind also has emotional reasons not to do wrong.

Now when Chipped!Soulless!InLove!Spike does evil (because even humans with souls, even good humans with good souls do the wrong thing, occasionally) he doesn't feel guilty about it, but he doesn't want Buffy to know about. And many of his evil acts seem to come more from the inability to care about what's truly good, than they do from a strong desire to do evil.

Then he does evil to her. And because among his primary (continued...)

( continues...) motives, there is the desire to make her happy, and because his experiences are being filtered through a mind that was formed when a soul was present, Spike does the impossible; he feels remorseful, he feels a conviction that what he did was wrong, and a very bad thing. He doesn't only feel this selfishly (in other words, he doesn't only feel this because he know looks bad in her eyes), he feels remorse because he cares that he did a wrong thing to Buffy and it hurt her. I think it is memory that makes this possible. Spike certainly should be able to remember the feelings of remorse William had, whenever he (William) did something wrong. And in being able to remember it—because the bloodlusting, evil essence is now shackled—he also actually feels it.

I disagree with the posters who thought it would have been better to see him attempt to redeem (this season) without a soul. I think that's what we have been seeing, probably since Intervention, and the story we were told about that is that it is impossible. When Spike had the moments of regret and remorse, after the attempted rape, he hit his glass ceiling. He was never going to get closer to an attempt at redemption than that, unless he had the necessary tools, namely, a soul and the conviction of conscience that it brings. But as I stated in the long series of soul posts, we all have a lot of real life opinions about the soul, and that certainly comes into play in my reaction.

That's a big post. None of my friends have a post that big ...