do you think the gypsy's just pulled a soul out of the ether and didn't care if they were cursing the right person or not?

Angel was the one being cursed -- not the soul, in my reading. They may have given him a fresh new soul.

so if Liam's soul went to the afterlife after Darla vamped him, he won't know what his physical body did after that fact.

The Restoration Curse recalled Liam's soul from "the ether." In the Jossverse, the soul does not seem to be sentient. Or at least, the soul does not does not seem to house all sentience, because we know people like Jesse knew Xander et al, after vamping, as well as he did before vamping. And we know that having his soul, having it taken away, having it restored (and repeat) did not affect Angel's memory more than momentarily.

Did the gypsy curse give Angel Liam's soul back?

I say yes, because it is a "Restoration" curse, not an "Ensoulment" curse. It makes it much simpler to discuss, as well.

but now we're getting back to what makes us us. is it the soul?

technically Angel doesn't have a soul since vampires are soulless creatures, right? so wouldn't they be cursing the human soul that was Angel, which would be Liam?

I think Joss finally settled on the notion that "soul" in the Buffy/Angelverse was something like "the inclination to do good" - which is pretty flimsy stuff theologically.

I wrote up a whole big thing on soul canon (and my guestimates added in) in the Jossverse, once. Let me see if I can find it. Plei has a copy on one of her sites, but it's unproofed. I think I saved a somewhat edited copy, somewhere.

It's pretty clear that the Gypsy ritual has restored the same soul to Angel each time it's been used, though. I think the simplest assumption to proceed from is that it calls up the soul that's supposed to go with the body.

edit: x-post with Cindy.

Neither Angel nor Darla seemed to have any memories from their souls' disembodied states, but Buffy did remember her afterlife.

Cindy: [link]

I would assume so, but from what we've been shown Liam was pretty much a bastard and re-souled Angel never struck me as such

well, you can give him some credit for growing up.

It's pretty clear that the Gypsy ritual has restored the same soul to Angel each time it's been used, though. I think the simplest assumption to proceed from is that it calls up the soul that's supposed to go with the body.

but then, why do you an Orb of Thessula to do the spell. If the orb contains a soul, then does the one in the orb replace the "original soul"? and on the other hand, in Angel, why did they need the particular vessel to restore Angels's soul. It wasn't until they released the soul by breaking the vessel that the soul was able to be restored. Why didn't they just use a random Orb of Thessula?

These theories were laid out sometime during BtVS Season 7/A:ts S4, sometime after BtVS's Selfless was broadcast. There may have been new information added to the canon afterwards. There are typos, etc., and someday I'll fix them.

Souls -N- Stuff...

I've been fanwanking/thinking about this way too much since I first saw Jenny planning to summon Angel's soul from the ether, in Passion.

The Jossverse suffers from a lack of terms as much as/more than it suffers from a lack of a firm definition of soul. My guess is, if they have a show or even Jossverse bible, it is neglected, as canon seems to veer wildly on everything from souls, to when vampires need an invite, to just what differentiates a hellgod (or Trollgod?) from a powerful demon. Anytime I've read Joss's posts, or interviews about the 'verse definition of soul, it's been in terms of the soul of a human. He has loosely equated it with conscience, and either said, or implied that said equation is for lack of a better term. Still, I don't think we've seen any contradiction of that point of canon, even in Spike (but more on him, in another post, another time).

Although D'Hoffryn referred to his price for reversing Anya's frat-house-slaughter as, "The life, and soul, of a Vengeance Demon," demons tend toward the dramatic when discussing the metaphysical, so for conversation's sake, it is simpler to add the term essence as a metaphysical descriptor in the 'verse. Human essence can then be called soul. Referring to demons as having essence rather than soul is simpler, because fans have innumerable, personal, real life definitions of soul, frequently informed by individual religious beliefs (or dis-), and many fans do not seem to differentiate between types of souls (i.e. human, vampire, vengeance demon, Mmm Fashnik, etc.).

As long as all of the 'verse demons were evil, the term soul and the definition like-a-conscience, was sufficient. Whistler, Doyle, Lorne and their ilk have muddied our mythological waters. This is an attempt to filter them. Although some of these terms, definitions, and explanations are non-canonical, they draw on canon, don't contradict it. At worst, they attempt to fill it in, and wank it a little so that it works.

'Verse Humans

Humans are a combination of a mortal body and an essence. The essence is defined as a soul. Canon implies the human soul is eternal, because Liam was killed in the 1700s and Willow was able to restore his soul to the vampire Angelus in the 1900s. Except for soulless!human boy in A:ts - who (like the very existence of Connor), is a case of SOMETHING GONE WONKY, and doesn't have to count in the rules of the 'verse, soul is gift with purchase of human body. Soul and body packaged together, but able to be separated, one from the other.

It seems that if the soul isn't what animates the human body (and except for soulless!human boy, I think early-in-series vampire canon hinted that it does), at the very least, the soul flees/is forced out, if/when the life-force that normally animates the body is drained/pushed out and replaced by vampyric life-force. It may be that since it is most likely eternal, human soul cannot tolerate being in something dead.

*Evil Non-corporeal Demons in the 'Verse - Type 1

Vampire essence is non-corporeal. It is transmitted almost like a virus, and seems to mutate as it replicates in the new host, depending on the mind (personality, emotions, motives, memories, tastes) of said host. It also seems to depend, or is affected by the sire-line from whence it came. It appears that eventually, sire-lines get watered down, and the further a newbie vamp is from the original sire of his line, the less powerful (and cool) s/he is as a vampire.

Type 1 Evil non-corporeal demons need the human host to be dead in order to infect it. This fact alone makes them evil, and their subsequent behaviors are oriented toward evil as well. Eyghon is another example (continued...)

( continues...) of this type. From what information is available on Eyghon, he seems to be a unique demon that jumps from host to host, rather than spreading amongst the human-corpse population, replicating and mutating. In other words, Eyghon's infection of the human-corpse host is more akin to a parasite than virus. The demon in Puppet Show was most likely another variation, but rather than infecting one host, its quest involved gathering ideal parts from many hosts and constructing its own.

When the soul leaves, and the corpse is reanimated through vampyrism, the new creature is oriented to prefer, be motivated by, seek out and revel in evil because that which animates it is evil. We do not have to consider Chipped!Spike here, because when the Initiative implanted the chip in Spike, same was the specific cause of yet another SOMETHING GONE WONKY, and all that happened to and within him—up until he was re-ensouled—does not relate to either to Angelus—>Angel, nor does it relate to any other vampire. What happened to Spike is interesting, though. And probably tomorrow [lj edit--see below, this post is a year old and that "tomorrow" has already come and gone], I'll blather at length about that, rather than this. Similarly, we do not have to consider Soul!Spike or Soul!Angel here, because they too, are unique cases of SOMETHING GONE WONKY. If/when I ever get to the Spike post, I don't expect any of it to contradict this, because the wonky things that have happened to him, open up whole new canonical sandboxes.

Non-corporeal Demons in the 'Verse - Type 2

These are the non-corporeal demons that don't need the host to be dead at the time of infestation. They seem able to enter the human vessel while it is alive, and co-exist with (and overwhelm or at least knock out) the human soul, during their hostile takeover of the body. In parlance common to both religions and the horror genre, these types of demons are the type which possess a human. They can be exorcised/magicked or otherwise killed/driven out. See The Pack as one example. Lycanthropy most likely falls under this category as well. The Burrower demon in A:ts 1:2, Lonely Hearts is also a variation on this type, in that it possesses a live human host, but by doing so, it slowly forces the life-force out of same.

NOTES on IMMORTALITY: In (I think) 206 [lj edit--when written, now we've had 144 episodes of BtVS and 109 episodes of A:ts, as of Wednesday, that will be 110, for a grand total of 254] 'verse episodes total, we've never been told that 'verse demons are mortal, so I am going to discuss this as if all 'verse demons are immortal, with this disclaimer: There may be some undocumented demon species that are mortal.

Immortal does not equal eternal. In terms of the 'verse, an immortal life-form does not die unless/until you kill them. Some are super-immortal (like vampires and Zombie!Pat). Super-immortals require a specific kind of killing. Smash its eyes, smash the amulet etc. Eternal things, although they may be driven out, cannot be killed. They do not die. Ever. Never. Ever.

Corporeal Demons in the 'Verse

Unlike 'verse human souls, corporeal 'verse demons do not have a separable part which orients and defines them in terms of morality, mission, and powers. This, in part, may be why vampires don't appear to eat and/or sire demons and we never see Demon X possessed by Demon Y. There may be no way for the vampire to kick out the motivating essence of a corporeal demon. Plus, being immortal, they're probably old and taste at least gamey, if not downright yucky. There are a multitude of species in the 'verse, and appearance, powers, mission and morality seems to vary accordingly. That these factors vary—that we have good, bad and seemingly neutral corporeal demons—is not problematic, and whether or not they have souls is no longer the question, nor is it a cause for argument. None of them have a human soul.

Vengeance Demons - A Special Type or More of the (continued...)