Buffy: You tossed that vamp like he was a... little teeny vamp. Riley: You wanna go again? C'mon. I bet this place is just teeming with aerodynamic vampires.

'Help'


Buffy and Angel 1: BUFFYNANGLE4EVA!!!!!1!

Is it better the second time around? Or the third? Or tenth? This is the place to come when you have a burning desire to talk about an old episode that was just re-run.


Vortex - Jul 29, 2005 10:41:07 am PDT #1494 of 10458
"Cry havoc and let slip the boobs of war!" -- Miracleman

I recall a lot of use of the words "hell dimension", I thought they were trying to shy away from the use of the christian "heaven" and "hell"


Lyra Jane - Jul 29, 2005 10:56:58 am PDT #1495 of 10458
Up with the sun

In a Christian universe, Anya goes to purgatory. That's the place for righteous unbelievers, right?

If it's binary -- heaven or hell -- I think it's hell because she never repented, which makes me sad.


sumi - Jul 29, 2005 10:58:02 am PDT #1496 of 10458
Art Crawl!!!

Isn't purgatory only what Catholics believe?


Susan W. - Jul 29, 2005 11:00:25 am PDT #1497 of 10458
Good Trouble and Righteous Fights

Yep. No Purgatory in the Protestant 'verse. Not sure about the Eastern Orthodox churches, though.


JohnSweden - Jul 29, 2005 11:29:32 am PDT #1498 of 10458
I can't even.

If it's binary -- heaven or hell -- I think it's hell because she never repented, which makes me sad.

I love Anya, but I can't see her getting into heaven without some special intervention. There's no repenting/shriving/whatever, and there's no indication of any acceptance of JHC as her lord and saviour (or any mental disposition thereto). Needs a big wanky handwave, IMO.


Topic!Cindy - Jul 29, 2005 11:36:30 am PDT #1499 of 10458
What is even happening?

She did repent, because theologically speaking, repenting means turning from your sins. How else could you describe her giving up her demonhood? She didn't do any sort of penance, but that's not a core doctrine.

and there's no indication of any acceptance of JHC as her lord and saviour (or any mental disposition thereto). Needs a big wanky handwave, IMO.

Asked and answered already. There's no evidence that she had been introduced to any concept of God as we understand him. We knew an awful lot about her personal life, even what sexual fantasy scenarios she preferred, and how how she tortured people, but nothing about any sort of religious understanding, which tends to indicate she didn't have any sort of religious understanding. That she died a martyr's death would indicate she was serving God to the extent He had revealed Himself to her.

But, the verse didn't have all this theology. So all that's really needed is that she died a hero's death. Remember, it is canon (and repeated canon) that there isn't some sort of cosmic checksheet whereby it is okay for Buffy to kill the occasional human, just because she's mostly saved them (cf "Dead Things" and whatever season 3 episode after Faith killed the Deputy Mayor).


-t - Jul 29, 2005 11:42:46 am PDT #1500 of 10458
I am a woman of various inclinations and only some of the time are they to burn everything down in frustration

But, the verse didn't have all this theology. So all that's really needed is that she died a hero's death.

I agree with the first sentence. I'm not sure about the second. I think that we don't know exactly why Buffy was in heaven. Darla was cursing God or denying God or something similar right before she was turned (the first time), tat could have doomed her to hell. Or being a vampire could have done it, I suppose. Do we think the spirit-Darla was evidence of her being in heaven after staking herself?


Matt the Bruins fan - Jul 29, 2005 11:48:41 am PDT #1501 of 10458
"I remember when they eventually introduced that drug kingpin who murdered people and smuggled drugs inside snakes and I was like 'Finally. A normal person.'” —RahvinDragand

If it's binary -- heaven or hell -- I think it's hell because she never repented, which makes me sad.

I'd argue that back in "Selfless" she showed contrition for the blood that was freshest on her hands, and in fact was willing to give up not only her life but her soul to restore the victims and put things to right. There was no prayer to the Christian deity, but she was clearly buying into a system of right and wrong at that point and willing to pay the price for her sins.


Topic!Cindy - Jul 29, 2005 11:50:04 am PDT #1502 of 10458
What is even happening?

I think that we don't know exactly why Buffy was in heaven.
This is what I hate about the (post?) modern age. Of course we know. She died to save the world, and prior to that, she lived a pretty self-sacrificial life, putting her own life, and the lives of her loved ones in jeopardy, to save people.

Darla was cursing God or denying God or something similar right before she was turned (the first time), tat could have doomed her to hell.
Or being a vampire could have done it, I suppose. Of course it did.

Do we think the spirit-Darla was evidence of her being in heaven after staking herself?
I'd have to rewatch, but I imagine that since her final act was to stake herself to save the baby, she was either rewarded or at least her punishment was mitigated.


JohnSweden - Jul 29, 2005 11:50:06 am PDT #1503 of 10458
I can't even.

But, the verse didn't have all this theology. So all that's really needed is that she died a hero's death.

That's the issue, in the end. Too much unmixy things. I don't buy that deciding not be a demon anymore satisfies enough requirements to get her into a Christian heaven. Valhalla, I can accept no problem, but that wasn't the question. Joss played fast and loose enough with the theology to make it difficult to make a real call.

which tends to indicate she didn't have any sort of religious understanding.

Too wanky for me. She's very curious, and isn't a blank slate entire. She lives as an adult for years in a modern-California analogue, not in the wilds of Borneo. She knows enough to know that religion exists and that she doesn't get the Innocent pass, IMO. I think she's damned enough from her demonic activity to be barred the Pearlies without some kind of overt indication of repentance or acceptance.

Now, hero's death, valhalla, Slayer sidekick "heaven", whatever. Sure.