solely for the sake of a throwaway joke

I have two problems with TGIQ.

(1) The handling of Buffy. Others have described the problem above. I'd phrase it as, I can't see Buffy hooking up with the Boyfriend that was described.

Nothing inherently wrong with giving an ep to "Where Is Buffy Now?" (OK, in the 3rd to last ep, with the Big Bad not even identified yet, not good -- but that's more timing than an inherently bad idea.) And after "Chosen," Buffy having a spree isn't an unreasonable path. But not the complete meltdown that was implied. Also, don't do it if you can't get SMG for at least a cameo and a spoken line or two.

(2) The handling of Andrew. He was chosen to collect the Potential and deliver the "we don't trust you any more" message. And he handled it well. Plus, his journey in S7 BtVS involved facing up to reality. So suddenly he's living a James Bond fantasy?

Although that's easier to fix. Instead of the two Bond girls, give him a boyfriend.

He's disclaimed that as hyperbole already.

It was in reply to a comment you said, so I didn't catch it on first read-through. Sorry.

Anyway, lunch is probably a better option than digging myself any deeper into this hole.

An episode which I still suspect existed purely to have that slash-pandering little exchange about 'that one time'.

That line was in "Power Play," not "The Girl in Question." God, I hate my brain.

I think TGiQ was a pretty impressive collection of bad ideas, but...not all bad ideas are pandering. If I wanted to pander to fans, I wouldn't spend most of an episode making a jokes about how dumb Angel and Spike are, and how pathetic their feelings for Buffy are. That's what I'd do if I was trying to enrage fans.

Which I am trying to do at times, so I know what I'm talking about.

I think TGiQ was a pretty impressive collection of bad ideas, but...not all bad ideas are pandering.

Agreed. I stick with my original impression that TGiQ was DG and DK's Excellent Adventure, their farewell letter to the universe, and that they both probably fought over which one of them got to be Spike when writing the episode. Well, maybe not the last part.

I didn't like the episode, but I don't think it was pandering. I think it was an orgy of self-indulgent writing of the "one last time" type gone a bit wrong, and I'd bet they had a lot more fun writing it than I did watching it. (The Illyria stuff in TGiQ was fairly decent. It's just the wacky adventures in Rome that made me pound my head on my desk.)

I swear Spike ruined seasons 6 and 7 for me.

Me, too (well, the second half of season 6). See also: Season 5 of Angel. Hated most of it.

TGiQ was a farce, a send-up of every Italian movie/show cliche ever. I liked it. Heck, I loved it.

I thought most of AtS S5 was quite enjoyable (cue the mutters of "Well, she likes Spike, go figure"), because it gave us a chance to look at the twisted relationship of Spike and Angel.

I thought "Chosen" was hokey and corny beyond watching. The only time I really liked Faith was on Angel after they busted her out of jail. Buffy whined a lot.

Classify me as you may.

It's just the wacky adventures in Rome that made me pound my head on my desk.

Although it did give us the line, "Ptui! Let us never speak of it again!"

I didn't like the episode, but I don't think it was pandering. I think it was an orgy of self-indulgent writing of the "one last time" type gone a bit wrong, and I'd bet they had a lot more fun writing it than I did watching it. (The Illyria stuff in TGiQ was fairly decent. It's just the wacky adventures in Rome that made me pound my head on my desk.)

Yes, this is, I think, a better way to put it, than is pandering. I'd forgotten about the B-story in that episode. It's been so long. I think the B-story was the reason for it. I never felt like Spike dominated on A:ts, the way he did in the latter seasons of BtVS. He didn't harsh my mellow there, in the least (as far as I can recall, anyhow).

Except there were people who liked that episode.

I enjoyed it thoroughly. I also like Pylea an awful lot. I have no problems with comic relief episodes or runs. Season Two, especially, was perfectly paced up to the point of Pylea, and I'm not sure if they could extend it much further without it getting overdone. Thus, it was either something different at the beginning of the season, or something different at the end, and I like the way they chose to go about it. I agree that TGiQ could probably have been replaced with something better for the overarching plot, but it didn't stop me from loving the ride of the episode, so funny. And the Fredllyria scenes were fricking amazing: honestly, a whole episode around those would've done me even better, but I enjoyed the cheap humor.

If I didn't hate Saint Cordy, I'd have long ago decided that my Angel opinions were unreconciliable with most (or at least the most outspoken and often eloquent) of the Buffistas. And my love for Waiting in the Wings seems to bely even that agreement a bit.

While we're at it, I think Season Five is my favorite Buffy season, and Season 6 is my third favorite, after 3. And ten episodes into season 7, I thought it was going to be the best season yet: compared to the first 10 episodes of most seasons, it was a pretty solid run. Plus, I happen to find Beer Bad to be one of the most enjoyable episodes in all of Buffy - it's probably in my top ten most watched - though I think I'm with many of you in thinking Restless is the best 43 minutes the show ever achieved.

Deep Space Nine.

Smacks forhead!

And I just finished watching the entire run a few months back. Yeah, they did pretty good there considering some of the meta problems on top of just keeping a show going 7 years. I think the closest thing to pandering I can think, aside from Vic as previously mentioned, was finding ways to keep bringing The Intendent back, and I wasn't about to complain about that.

The problems with Bashir were definitely more of the "neat idea/good, enthusiastic actor" school of not thinking the implications through, IMO.