If you're not going to pander to your fans, ie, the folks who love and watch the show, who are you going to pander to? The hyper-sophisticate theatre school types?

I guess you could 1, not distinguish between sophisticated viewers and fans or 2, avoid pandering. Or both.

I don't even know who you mean by "hyper-sophisticate theatre school types". I'm saying that the weakest parts of late Buffy and Angel were the parts which mimicked fanfic tropes, which buried themselves in injokes and shoutouts, which turned somersaults to keep Spike in the show after Seeing Red rather than breaking new ground. The trend that culminated in the only unwatchable, actively painful episode they ever did, The Girl In Question, which wasn't just fanfic but bad fanfic, not just injokes but bad injokes. An episode which I still suspect existed purely to have that slash-pandering little exchange about 'that one time'.

If you're not going to pander to your fans, ie, the folks who love and watch the show, who are you going to pander to? The hyper-sophisticate theatre school types?

Maybe a touch less with the pandering, and c'mon, with Spike it was anvil!pandering every week.

with the Fonzification of Spike

Oh baby, mine is a bitter laugh.

The trend that culminated in the only unwatchable, actively painful episode they ever did, The Girl In Question, which wasn't just fanfic but bad fanfic, not just injokes but bad injokes.

Except there were people who liked that episode.

buried themselves in injokes and shoutouts

Which injokes?

I totally agree that Spike lasted too long. Or, well, he didn't. *My* Spike was replaced by a pod-vampire, and with no real explanation or benefit to the show.

An episode which I still suspect existed purely to have that slash-pandering little exchange about 'that one time'.

Because it was such a hard line to slip into an episode?

Which is why we call them "opinions", Steph.

Which is why we call them "opinions", Steph.

Which is why I thought it was acceptable to express mine. My mistake.

An episode which I still suspect existed purely to have that slash-pandering little exchange about 'that one time'.

As opposed to giving some resolution, no matter how inadequate, to the Buffy question?

injokes?

All of TGIQ. Much of Selfless (which is a damn shame because there was real, painful, upsetting meat in that episode), loads of the Trio stuff. That's off the top of my head. I know the winking at the audience started much earlier (the "Guys, reality?" line way back in S3 is the first example I can think of), but towards the end it really started to grate on my nerves.

Because it was such a hard line to slip into an episode?

Hyperbole. My loathing for that episode is so all-encompassing that I may never be able to visit Italy.

And yeah, your position on the change in Spike has always been very persuasive.

Injokes? Why'd I say that? I meant to ask about shoutouts, actually. I don't mind shoutouts I miss, since they're not disrupting the flow. I can remember one (vaguely) that left me with a "Why did he just say that?" feeling, but the rest slid right over my head, and so I can't complain.

your position on the change in Spike has always been very persuasive

Whuh?