An episode which I still suspect existed purely to have that slash-pandering little exchange about 'that one time'.

As opposed to giving some resolution, no matter how inadequate, to the Buffy question?

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injokes?

All of TGIQ. Much of Selfless (which is a damn shame because there was real, painful, upsetting meat in that episode), loads of the Trio stuff. That's off the top of my head. I know the winking at the audience started much earlier (the "Guys, reality?" line way back in S3 is the first example I can think of), but towards the end it really started to grate on my nerves.

Because it was such a hard line to slip into an episode?

Hyperbole. My loathing for that episode is so all-encompassing that I may never be able to visit Italy.

And yeah, your position on the change in Spike has always been very persuasive.

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Injokes? Why'd I say that? I meant to ask about shoutouts, actually. I don't mind shoutouts I miss, since they're not disrupting the flow. I can remember one (vaguely) that left me with a "Why did he just say that?" feeling, but the rest slid right over my head, and so I can't complain.

your position on the change in Spike has always been very persuasive

Whuh?

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As opposed to giving some resolution, no matter how inadequate, to the Buffy question?

Are you kidding? You're kidding. They resolved the Buffy question! Cookie dough! The smile! "Can stand up - will stand up!" That's what pissed me off most - more than the pandering, more than making a joke out of Angelus - was bringing Buffy back after the perfect closure of Chosen for - what? A couple of cheap gags and another bloody flashback?

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I am also very hard pressed to think of a series that lasted for more than a 3-4 years, and that had any reliance on a presumed continuity, that didn't eventually succomb to a round of "wouldn't it be cool if", or "this would be neat", or "we need to shake things up" that in turn sacrafices some of the continuity/integrity somehow. Can anybody think of one?

Deep Space Nine.

I wasn't in the fandom when it aired and ended up catching the entire 7 seasons over a period of months, but the attention paid to the continuity and the arcs was breathtaking. I guess one can make a case of Vic Fontane falling into this camp, but I thought he was fun and well-used overall. And Odo/Kira, despite its occasional foray into soapy/weird rom-com territory, ended beautifully, I thought.

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I can't think of any shoutouts (exept that moon in Firefly, which was clearly acceptable), so ignore that bit of my rant. And I meant that the point you always used to make about them buggering up Spike somewhere along the line was a good one.

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As much as I adored Bashir on DS9, they asspulled on him, I'll swear.

Honestly, I think it's nigh impossible. With budgets and whims and instant feedback and personnel changes, any TV series that runs for a while is just not going to be able to sustain the integrity (should the author intend any, really) of a book or even series of books.

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I think they were less pandering to the fans than writing to those actors who remained enthusisastic and prepared. Some actors burn out after playing the same character for a long time or personal reasons interfere and you have to write around them. There is very little time in TV to pull a good performance out of an actor on set or to edit around a spotty one, and writers and producers are leery of writing for actors who may not be able to play a big arc or a big scene.

This partially explains BtVS, but I can't believe that every actor on AtS other than JM was suffering from S5 burnout. Though, of course, I've long suspected that S5's issues stemmed from a combination of network pressures and getting to write a shiny new thing. Well, and a final arc that made no sense. For a season that contains so much good, I'm astoundingly meh about it as a whole.

As for pandering, I'm generally against it.

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They resolved the Buffy question! Cookie dough! The smile!

Uh, yeah. And then Spike died. And came back. And Angel took over Wolfram and Hart and lost the trust of Buffy and everyone else.

Hate the episode, fine. Plenty of people do. But arguing that they tossed it in as filler solely for the sake of a throwaway joke makes no sense to me.

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Are you kidding? You're kidding. They resolved the Buffy question! Cookie dough! The smile! "Can stand up - will stand up!" That's what pissed me off most - more than the pandering, more than making a joke out of Angelus - was bringing Buffy back after the perfect closure of Chosen for - what? A couple of cheap gags and another bloody flashback?

I don't agree with much of what you say about Spike, but here on the Buffy question from A:ts TGiQ, we are as one. I hated that with a passion. I have to not think about it. Instead, I remember the "Ciao" scene, and choose to let the rest of it live in the fog.

Where Spike is concerned, I had no problem with them using the attempted rape, or something else equally as dark to send him for a soul. I knew a soul had to be coming for him. He'd changed both too much, and not enough, thanks to the enchipment. But season 7 didn't make it all worth it, for me, that is.

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