they let us know upfront what it is they're looking for in feedback or commentary or input or whatever, they read their piece, they get the discussion.

This is how my writing school functions, and it's so helpful. Nothing is worse than reading an obvious first draft -- messy and ungrammatical as hell -- to your group, wanting basic content/concept feedback, but getting line-edits on the grammar instead. Makes me want to punch someone in the head.

Just as bad, however, are people who, when asked what kind of feedback they want, say "Oh, whatever; I don't care." Then WHY are you reading it to us?!? My personal (bitchy) opinion is that the people who say "I don't care" *actually* want heaps of praise for the shimmering wonder that is Their Art, but they can't actually *say* that (O! No!), so they passive-aggressively use the "I don't care" line.

Almost all of my writing groups? Lame. (In one case, literally.) The crip one was always after me to take the "obscenity" out of my stuff, because if they read "goddamn" they melted or something. That was the only note I ever got, I curse too much. I fucking knew that. As you can tell, I followed that advice.

erika, the more I look at it, the more I think you need to be somewhere that produces fewer people concerned with their personal harmlessness. Really. That's just nuts.

Just as bad, however, are people who, when asked what kind of feedback they want, say "Oh, whatever; I don't care." Then WHY are you reading it to us?!? My personal (bitchy) opinion is that the people who say "I don't care" *actually* want heaps of praise for the shimmering wonder that is Their Art, but they can't actually *say* that (O! No!), so they passive-aggressively use the "I don't care" line.

GAH. Yes. And ditto on the first draft thing. Everything I read at one of my own group meetings is either a first draft, or close to it, at least in terms of feedback from other people, so mine is easy, because I'm looking for pretty much the same thing every time: does it flow with the previous chapters I've read? Does it ring true? Are there any bits of dialogue, and back and forths, any particular bits that slow down your absorption of the story?

Also, as Allyson mentioned earlier, there's the fine line, the give and take, in critiquing. I don't allow any gratuitous trashing of work, and lord knows, if the work is really bad, I totally get and sympathise with the temptation. Luckily, I've only ever had one person who couldn't write for love or money, poor man, and he's gone now...

Time for a little memememe here!

An LJ friend organized the "Commie Pinko Short Story Contest". The gimmick was that you only had 48 hours to write the story, and you would receive a secret sentence when the 48 hours began that had to be incorporated into the story. The contest is peer-judged, and I don't know how many people entered, but it's no higher than low double digits.

All this to say, I tied for first. I only entered the thing to force myself to write and complete something. I tied for first! t does dance

BETSY! (dancing alongside) And now, of course, I'm dying to read it.

Nothing is worse than reading an obvious first draft -- messy and ungrammatical as hell -- to your group, wanting basic content/concept feedback, but getting line-edits on the grammar instead. Makes me want to punch someone in the head.

And here I've been always line-editing messy, ungrammatical work in critique situations and thinking I was doing the most helpful thing possible by giving them the benefit of my grammar ear. Also, if the grammar is really, really bad, it's hard for me to even SEE the content/concept behind it. I think I'm sort of a Grammar Nazi.

Of course if someone says upfront that they know there are typos/grammatical issues and want us to ignore them and focus on other things, I'll do my best. But I love it when people in the critique group which sees my rough drafts point out typos or repetitive sentence structure or the fact I've become fixated on a word ("Susan, did you notice you have Anna describe something as 'odious' three times in two pages?"). Makes it easy to come straight home from the meeting and correct any glaring errors right away. So I've really been trying to do unto others as I'd have them do unto me.

Way to go, Betsy!

become fixated on a word ("Susan, did you notice you have Anna describe something as 'odious' three times in two pages?")

Ah, the "word of the day" syndrome. I've done it frequently.

YAY, Betsy! Woohoo! I know that feels good.

the shimmering wonder that is Their Art

snerk.

Various online fic groups say, every now and then, that they wish people would tell the badfic writers that it's badfic instead of praising them. I see so many kickass ideas and/or brilliant characterizations that get torpedoed because either their characterization or their plot sucks like an Electrolux. Maybe I should just bite the bullet and take the folks who say they want constructive criticism up on their requests--with an actual eye to being helpful instead of just saying "Oh, god, never darken my screen again"--but there has to be a more constructive way to help than just to say, "The voices are terrific but the plot is stale."

How do you actually help someone improve characterization or plotting? I'm pretty good at it, but, well, it's just something I can do. I don't know how I do it. How do you teach someone a new way of thinking?

When I get something back from beta redlined for grammar, I ignore the beta. I have a friend who is an editor, and I send my stuff to her for editing after it is beta read. I'm looking for a critique of the story. Does it resonate with you in some way? Did it make you laugh? Do you "get it?"

If I lost you, how so? If it bores you or becomes confusing, tell me.

"You ended this sentence in a preposition" tells me nothing. It's an essay, it's written how I speak, mostly.