I see the concept of sex must wait until marriage as a problem because of two reasons:

1)it makes ( in many people's minds) marriage=sex. sorry, my marriage is more than sex and I would be married even if there suddenly was no sex. and keep my vows of faithfulness.

2) I 've seen too many people get married before they were ready. because of sex. most failed.

and a third reason - Like I said before - if I waited until I got married - I would have been 32. I hope that I had enough reason before than to deal with sex. and since I was in no way an early bloomer(20 or 21?) I think my judgement about being ready , was pretty good.

I've typed and erased about ten different thoughts here, so I guess I have no overall point, except that I'd better figure something out by the time she's a teenager.

You and me both.

I've had good sex and emotionally healthy sex, but those things were not always with the same partner, and damn if I know how I'm going to be able to explain how fraught the whole thing is.

(I don't, actually, personally believe in sex-for-the-sake-of-sex. This is not to say I've never done it, but it's not really what I'm wired for.)

But I still draw the line at picking up a total stranger and having sex with him.

Let me explore your lines for a moment -- how about being picked up by a total stranger - is that a total skeeve too?

But I still draw the line at picking up a total stranger and having sex with him.

Let me explore your lines for a moment -- how about being picked up by a total stranger - is that a total skeeve too?

Totally. Actually, I didn't consider them 2 separate things until you asked that -- me picking a stranger up and a stranger picking me up are equal in my mind.

Huh. I guess that's one thing coming of age in the 80s did for me, condoms were easily available and frequently used. We had coin operated dispensers in the dorms.

I think the only thing on that list with a religious basis is the anti-gay sentiment.

I really don't think so. Though at this point, I'm talking about the broader culture of the religious right than just which issues are driven by biblical interpretation. As an example, I think many people who were strongly anti-abortion, were untroubled by the active disenfranchisement of black voters in the Florida 2000 election because it was more important to them to have Bush in office. The strands of religious and whackaloon political theory are bound up in that culture in complex ways. The idea that America is morally superior and that we need to export our democracy with a gun is rooted in the presumption that Christianity is morally superior. Not for everybody - of course -but certainly for a large part of the constiuency which put Bush in office this time.

My life's been so temptation-deprived.

Interesting points, Beth. It reminds me of the fact that when much of the "sex is for marriage" doctrine was formed, people generally married at a much younger age. These days, people are often sexually mature for well over a decade before getting married, which throws a big wrench into the works.

Huh. I guess that's one thing coming of age in the 80s did for me, condoms were easily available and frequently used. We had coin operated dispensers in the dorms.

We had packages with condoms, fingercots, gloves, lube, and dental dams all available 24/7 outside the Health Center.

I knew women in college who couldn't prepare for sex (i.e. by having birth control around) because that would mean admitting to themselves that they actually planned to have sex

See, I can wrap my head around that, even if I think it's not a good viewpoint to have. But being on the Pill, but refusing to protect yourself from diseases? That makes no sense what so ever and scares me.

I've had good sex and emotionally healthy sex, but those things were not always with the same partner, and damn if I know how I'm going to be able to explain how fraught the whole thing is.

nods head