Firefly 4: Also, we can kill you with our brains
Discussion of the Mutant Enemy series, Firefly, the ensuing movie Serenity, and other projects in that universe. Like the other show threads, anything broadcast in the US is fine; spoilers are verboten and will be deleted if found.
As horrible as I think BE's actions were, I would hate to see anyone lose her home over this. I don't think they deserve to be in business, and although I'm not holding my breath, I want the attendees to get some money back (the Hilton will survive, and it's not like it cost the actors anything, they didn't get paid, but there is a difference).
Kevin, have the ticket holders gathered anywhere to report and tally up what they paid for this event (ticket price and all their add-on tickets)?
At the BE forum, I've since seen the (lowest) ticket price mentioned as $229.00, so the rock bottom take-in would have been $114,500.00 ($229 x 500 attendees). Since there were different passes (more expensive = more access to the actors), and there were add-ons for things like photo-ops, additional autograph ops (possibly; that was unclear), a cocktail party, a dinner, and I don't know what else, the figure has to be higher. Upstream here, someone floated the figure of $125,000.00, but my guess is that's too low, as well.
It would be interesting to see what sort of money BE took in. I would love to know how much they had, going into the cancelation, too.
I have nothing at stake but curiosity here, but I would dearly love to know if all that money went to paying for previous events which did not pay for themselves, or if it is lining some hidden pocket.
Well, they had at least two undersold events and a canceled one.
I have read that a star like Nathan gets twenty to thirty-thousand dollars, for an event like this. If you have 3 or 4 big stars at two undersold cons, you can see how a lot of that money would get eaten up. If you have a handful of less expensive stars there two, you can imagine the hole getting deep, awfully quickly.
Supposedly, this Vicki paid Bruce Campbell out of her own pocket, for one of the earlier cons. I haven't seen Denise dispute that, so I do think it's totally possible they just suck at business, and suck at coming clean and admitting failure, and suck at facing reality, until it is beyond too late. They probably got themselves into such a hole, they needed to keep having cons, in order to continue getting in money.
I'd still hate to see them lose their homes, though.
I have read that a star like Nathan gets twenty to thirty-thousand dollars
I vaguely recall that David Boreanaz got somewhere around £100,000 to £150,000 for one of his UK conventions a couple of years back. Big money.
and it's not like it cost the actors anything
A few of them had other gigs on that weekend, but (for some reason) didn't cancel. So in the end, they ended up out. I think Jewel Staite actually posted online 'bout that.
Adam, Alan and Nathan are all the same ball park figure (according to Denise, she posted that online), so you can see where funds go for events like this. One of the events earlier in the year had, like, 20 guests and very few actual attendees, and some of the guests were the likes of That Bald Guy from Smallville and Bruce Campbell. Who aren't cheap. Oh, and the 3 main guys from Veronica Mars.
Personally, I just think they suck at business badly. It's quite clear the two owners weren't talking to each other for a fairly long period (warning will robinson!), but yet were still pouring finance into the business. Whilst I agree nobody involved should loose something like a house over this, under a normal LLC company (which Booster is) that wouldn't happen, as the partners are limited liability. However, it looks like they've secured stuff against their own assets. Hopefully I'm wrong.
I vaguely recall that David Boreanaz got somewhere around £100,000 to £150,000 for one of his UK conventions a couple of years back. Big money.
Ooof. He probably got flown over and put up in a nice hotel too, right?
A few of them had other gigs on that weekend, but (for some reason) didn't cancel. So in the end, they ended up out. I think Jewel Staite actually posted online 'bout that.
I could have worded that better. They certainly lost out, but they didn't
lay
out money, unlike the ticket holders, if you see what I mean.
I'm sure it hurt the actors who get less work (and get paid less for these appearances and for their work), and I think it's awful that it happened to any of them--even the ones who get huge fees.
There is (to my eyes) a difference between paying for something you don't get, and not getting paid for a job you were promised, but that fell through. They may well have had plans (and even a real need) for the money, it's just a different circumstance. In general, I'm just always going to be more concerned for the fans, than the actors. I LOVE how well the Ff cast turned out, last weekend. It warms the cockles of my cold heart. But I think I'm a little grossed out about the whole huge-paycheck star appearances aspect of the convention game, to begin with.
Personally, I just think they suck at business badly. It's quite clear the two owners weren't talking to each other for a fairly long period (warning will robinson!), but yet were still pouring finance into the business. Whilst I agree nobody involved should loose something like a house over this, under a normal LLC company (which Booster is) that wouldn't happen, as the partners are limited liability. However, it looks like they've secured stuff against their own assets. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Well, if I took out a second mortgage, I wouldn't lose my house (no matter what I spent the money on), provided I kept making my payments.
If there were ever to be any refunds (I really don't think people will end up seeing any money--some smart attorney is going to tell these women to get over their tiff and declare bankruptcy), how do you think they should be distributed? Fans first? Flan fans first? What about BB and NN ticket holders? People who didn't go to California, once they realized the con wouldn't come off? What do you think?
how do you think they should be distributed
The court will make that decision.
Topic!Cindy, I actually agree about the actors, I just wanted to put it out there they were out of work from it. But, yeah: the people who got shafted here properly are the fans. Let's face it, one cancelled con isn't going to put Jewel significantly out, whereas I suspect some fans have suffered a reasonably big amount of financial hardship from this.
One thing I have noticed, looking online: a lot of BE's customers still don't know what is going on with Booster, and are still talking about refunds via the company. BE need to mail their personal statement thing out to their customers, if they can actually agree about anything.
If it goes bankrupt (which is really a 'when?'), there is a hold placed on company financies (all money going out and in) for 90 days. A professional company is assigned to look at the accounts, and divide out the remaining money (creditors get first pick, will be mortgage providers, loan providers, hotels etc). Anything left (assuming there is anything) will -- presumably, I don't understand this bit fully -- go to customers. I don't know how customers claim that. I presume they will have to file proof with the company handling the financies.
How they decide to dish out the money, I don't know. I'll have to find that out. I'm back home beginning of next week, so that'll be my plan. Might as well find out what the full bankruptacy procedure involves from a fan point of view.
There is also the aspect of Vicki and Denise. I know Denise has threatened to take legal action against Vicki, as she's said that publicly. I know Vicki is saying she and her partner significantly bank rolled the business, so it wouldn't surprise me if she wants a portion of that back during bankruptacy.
I don't know if they could have a legal fight over money at this late stage. If they did, it could delay money being handed out to fans until the case is resolved -- which, being a non-criminal case, would be a long time away. However do Denise and Vicki actually have enough money to sue each other? Who knows.
Maybe I'm evil, but I don't care if they lose their houses. The point of creating an LLC is to avoid the risk of losing personal assets. Then going on to use personal money and/or assets for business purposes, to keep a failing business afloat for whatever reason, is very dumb. Losing personal assets is what happens to people who make stupid financial decisions. Speaking as a person who has made such, and lost such, myself. If they're able to declare bankruptcy and walk away from this debacle with nothing worse than a lost house, they're lucky. And, as pointed out, as long as they can keep making the payments on the loan, they won't lose the house. So it's likely they'll be none the worse, once this all shakes out. It's the fans who will have lost unrecoverable assets.
If it goes bankrupt (which is really a 'when?'), there is a hold placed on company financies (all money going out and in) for 90 days. A professional company is assigned to look at the accounts, and divide out the remaining money (creditors get first pick, will be mortgage providers, loan providers, hotels etc).
I think the business can declare bankruptcy without the people declaring personal bankruptcy, so I'm not so sure the mortgage lenders will come into the equation. I suppose it depends on what sort of loan they got, and the terms of it.
The court will make that decision.
Of course they will, Tamara. I was asking about personal opinions, because it's such a big, layered mess.
