story-wise, symbolism-wise, anything, I just can't figure it out.

To heighten the level of jeopardy?

Why Wash dies, I don't know. But the Reaver ship was following them down the whole way, it seemed to me. As the Serenity landed, the camera was pretty much on the side, so we didn't see where the Reaver ship went, but I always assumed they were still following, rather than giving up and wandering about. Since they didn't lose power, they could just glide into the same hanger that Serenity was sort of crashing through... and then Serenity crashed tail-first, its bow pointed directly toward the following Reaver ship.

All of that made sense to me. Then comes the Wash dying, which not so much.

There's a scene when the crew is fleeing Serenity where you can see several ships landing behind Serenity (but since Serenity got turned around they're at the front, IIRC).

I'm trying to picture the scene in my head, as I haven't seen Serenity for a few months... so I might not be remembering it exactly. But there were Reaver ships right behind Serenity....

Joss' stated reasoning for killing Wash was to show what the stakes were and ratchet up the tension for the finale. For me I think it ratcheted the tension up too high, to the point where I lost my emotional involvement completely, but YTMV.

I think it ratcheted the tension up too high, to the point where I lost my emotional involvement completely

The same thing happened to me. It threw me completely out of the story. I didn't care what happened to anybody else because it was just flickers on a screen, it didn't mean anything, I was no longer involved in the outcome.

I've heard it was Tudyk who suggested it, when it was realized that somebody the audience was invested in and cared about needed to die, as a way of hammering home the randomness of death and racheting the jeopardy of everyone else's lives. From a filmmaking standpoint I suppose it did work. For me personally, it ruined the whole film.

I made myself see it again in the theatre, and I bought the dvd the day of release. I think it still has the cellophane on it. I'll watch the extras. I don't think I'll ever watch the film again. I've been going through the series dvds, and I've got my affection and investment in the characters back. I don't want to mess with that by seeing the film again.

I didn't like the retcon of Simon's character. I didn't like the marginalizing and relegating every character to thumbnail stereotype but River and Mal. I do realize it was a movie, an encapsuled version of the story Joss always had in mind, the main thread of which was little girl in jeopardy is stronger than anybody (it's his theme), but I missed the threads of the others, which were always more important to me than River.

To me, River was only interesting as one of an ensemble, not as the jewel for whom the rest of the cast was merely the setting.

Erm. Sorry. Yeah, I have issues.

I've heard it was Tudyk who suggested it, when it was realized that somebody the audience was invested in and cared about needed to die, as a way of hammering home the randomness of death and racheting the jeopardy of everyone else's lives. From a filmmaking standpoint I suppose it did work. For me personally, it ruined the whole film.

Yeah. For me, the death of someone in whom I was invested--that happened when Book died.

To me, River was only interesting as one of an ensemble, not as the jewel for whom the rest of the cast was merely the setting.

Erm. Sorry. Yeah, I have issues.

Oh Book's death keeled me ded. I was mourning and cursing his loss, so when Wash got cut down, I just really had no purchase for my investment any more, and realized at that point that the whole movie, and the series before it, had really been All About River, and I felt completely used, fooled, and betrayed, and just couldn't summon up the interest to care anymore.

I *hated* Book's death because it felt to me like cliche. The old guy goes down--first you marginalize him off the ship, then you cut him down. I know, I know, all those innocent people, yadda yadda, I don't really care about them. I care about my crew, and Book is part of that crew, with fascinating byplay among the other crew members, and intriguing backstory, and though affable and gentle-seeming can go all steely-scary in a hot second, and speaking of hot--the eyes and the voice, and well, yes, the *face* on that man? ::fans self:: So his death felt cliched to me, but I realize the necessity for the audience actually caring about all those innocent people and having Book front for them, emotionally, worked. I hated it, but it worked.

But then Wash was the next logical cliche--destroy the happy, sexy marriage. Which, you know, I would have been furious about if it had been Zoe who went down, but furious *at the Reavers*, and it would have kept me in the story. It would have been of enormous interest, compelling interest, to see how Wash handled her loss, and even moreso, how Mal went forward from there.

Or if Zoe (and *no I don't* want to lose Zoe, but it would have been the more interesting choice for me) is too valuable to lose, then it would have been incredibly, heartbreakingly ironic and painful for Simon to break his baby sis out, get her "safely" away and through her "I'm all right!" moment, and then to die himself. Young, bright, the whole universe ahead of him, bam, gone, randomosity of death lesson.

I thought the character choices, aside from the fact that they were the two characters I was most interested and invested in, were the most "easily" disposable, and had it not been for the background of the series, I'd have seen them both wearing red shirts from the beginning of the movie.

I felt completely used

Used? Really? I can't imagine fiction using me.

Also, I don't feel that Wash was more of a redshirt than Kaylee, and I know more than one person who thought that either River or Simon would bite it.

Sometimes hindsight is more than 20/20, and in the bad way. Zoe and Jayne didn't stand out enough to die, Inara was almost the same, and there was no way our Captain was going to buy it.

I understand that people don't like the death, thought it was too much, etc, but I also think a lot is being read into what I hear was a practical decision as much as it was a narrative one. Tudyk was not going to live through the end of the movie.

Given that--what are the narrative alternatives?

Beverly, what I meant to post was that I had already suffered the death of a character in whom I was invested. Wash's felt like overkill. I suppose for people who were seeing the film without having seen the series, Book's death mattered little, but it was plenty enough for me.

Used? Really? I can't imagine fiction using me.

I didn't get the feeling so much from Serenity, but the one time I really felt I was being manipulated was when Gary died on thirtysomething.