People don't like to consider prisoners as human, Cindy. Joe was in for drinking and driving (he never killed anyone, than goodness). The 19 year old kid was in for B&E, the renal failure guy was in for stealing $4K from his brother, so we're not talking about hardened criminals.

I don't know what the answer is. I don't think that severely mentally ill people should be housed in prisons and I think that prisoners should get at least humane care but that is not where people want their tax dollars going when a lot of law-abiding people can't afford to go to a doctor, either. Especially if we're talking about career criminals or vicious killers or child molesters. I know they're human, too, but how much do I want to make their lives easier? Not so much.

But common sense ought to state that any prisoner who isn't either on death row, or in for life needs serious care in all areas, so that when he comes out, he's going to be better than when he went in. And for lifers of both varieties, giving good care is the only humane option.

You may be surprised how many people do not share this philosophy, and advocate the more, "let 'em rot" philosophy. It is horrifying. I once (recently) sat through a discussion while on site at a conference that debated the point that child molesters and murderers should, instead of being in prison, taken out to reserves and hunted by hunters. I felt very alone in my horror.

At a time when compassion, in general, seems to be at an all-time low, there doesn't seem to be a lot left over for people in prison.

When my brother was in the Indiana state system, they stopped giving him his meds, which caused a full blown psychotic episode. Then they dragged him out of the general population, put him in solitary for three days and didn't bother to tell anyone in our family.

Nodding. A close friend of the family was arrested and held in Miami for more than six months because they misinterpreted signs of mental illness as signs of being a crackhead. The arresting offence was a rock they found in his pocket that, when they finally got around to testing it, turned out to be...a rock. His mother (who is a doctor herself and a very forceful woman) spent months trying to present his medical records and get him back on medication and found no one who would listen to her at all.

Especially if we're talking about career criminals or vicious killers or child molesters. I know they're human, too, but how much do I want to make their lives easier? Not so much.

Yeah, I'm very fuzzy this morning, but wanted to explain that in my above post, I'm not all, child-molester-yay, it was just the discussion at hand.

But I think that people get lumped in, and there's not a lot of room for distinction for people who have committed less serious crimes, or are mentally ill or addicted to drugs or alcohol.

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify.

I know. In a case like Joe's though, his addictions (and stupid actions under the influence, like drunk driving) are so tied to his mental illness, and a sad effort to self-medicate. If we could use the bureaucracies as a cycle-breaker, treating mentally ill prisoners seems to be a win-win (with possibly a third win in there) situation, to me. In addition to the inmate feeling better, he's going to be easier to manage, and if he gets enough "down time" from his addictions, and treatment under his belt while he's in, it just seems like common sense that he'll be at least somewhat less likely to have to be hosted again. Sorry for preaching to the choir.

eta...This was in response to Cashmere's post.

and an x-post with Nora.

I wish we could get more funding for drug treatment vs. prison. Even going through rehab three or four times (it can take many tries to kick addictions) is cheaper than incarcerating someone for possession of drugs. But people who aren't addicted don't see the reasoning behind that. Same with mental illness. Over half of the mentally ill in this country are addicted to drugs or alcohol (self medicating) and that makes them far more likely to end up in the criminal justice system--where there are no exceptions made for their conditions.

It chills my blood to think that the last two serious killings we've had in town (the Freeway Shooter and the man who shot the singer from Pantera) are both men who were diagnosed and being treated for schizophrenia. If they plead guilty, but mentally ill, they still end up in prison where they get no treatment. If they try to take it to court, jurors think they are faking it to get out of a murder rap and convict anyway so they end up in prison where they will get no treatment--or worse, on death row.

At a time when compassion, in general, seems to be at an all-time low, there doesn't seem to be a lot left over for people in prison.

True. I've always found it interesting that one of the categories used to separate the sheep from the goats was "you visited me when I was in prison" (paraphrase).

I guess I'm happy we were in Montana at the time. I never thought about differences in treatment. I used to marvel at how good he had it, but I'd rather that than that he be mistreated.

common sense ought to state that any prisoner who isn't either on death row, or in for life needs serious care in all areas, so that when he comes out, he's going to be better than when he went in.

And it's not just about being humane, which ought to be enough. Infectious disease is becoming a huge problem because we've basically set up a system to incubate things like TB and then release it back into the community.

and multiple x-posts! talk about hivemind.