This conversation is cracking me up. I just came back from a work-day from hell (like, hello? It's 10 friggin' PM. Stupid job) and clicked on B.org for the first time. If only I'd known you guys were arguing about the extent of English instruction in Korea! I'd have dropped everything!

Anyway, my first-hand experience as a high-schooler in Korea in the 80's (which I expect would also apply to Jin and Sun as I think they are about my age, i.e. early-to-mid 30's) is that 1) yes, English was taught as the main second language all across the country, including small fishing villages in southern provinces, 2) the instruction continued through the secondary school, i.e. approximately 6 years, and 3) the emphasis was mostly on the comprehension of the written language, grammar and spelling with essentially no practical instruction on conversational english. When my family came to Canada (I was 17), it was like I had NO English instruction whatsoever--and this was despite the fact that I was a fairly good student. I could understand some written words, and could say, "I don't speak English," "Where is the bathroom?", and "How do you do?" and really, that was about it. It took nearly a year of continuous exposure to American TV (I watched a scary amount of Family Ties reruns) and reading a trunkful of trashy romances & Agatha Christies before I had a decent grasp at the language.

My understanding is that in the past decade, there has been a movement of sorts among the business community (and children of the affluent) to learn practical, conversational English, mostly in an out-of-the-classroom setting, in after-work/school classes with a native-English-speaking teachers or in private lessons. This wasn't as prevalent when I was growing up there, so it doesn't surprise me at all that Jin (as well as pre-lessons Sun) has little conversational English skills. However, if he really wanted to communicate, he would have found a way--as I mentioned, the students are taught vocabulary and grammar, so he could have pointed and said "fish", or "flower", and "water" (albeit poorly pronunciated). But I think this is fanwankable by the assumption that Jin did *not* want to communicate, ergo made no attempt to do so; he was distrustful of other castaways and wanted for him and Sun to keep to themselves.

I do have issues with how fluent Sun's English is. There's no way someone can speak it that well with only a few months of lessons on the sly. Plus, she often speaks with a fairly sophisticated phrasing, e.g. "Protecting that watch was a matter of honour", like, yeeeeeah, right. "Watch! Important!" is probaby all I could have managed in the same situation.

When my family came to Canada (I was 17),

Whoa - fascinating Vonnie biogaphical details. How come we're so simpatico on classic movie viewing?

It took nearly a year of continuous exposure to American TV (I watched a scary amount of Family Ties reruns) and reading a trunkful of trashy romances & Agatha Christies before I had a decent grasp at the language.

Heh. TV to the rescue! My friend Josh said he learned most of his German by watching Bugs Bunny cartoons dubbed while he was in that country.

I, too thought maybe Sun was going to walk into the ocean and drown or suicide by drowning. Hurley's montagious interruptus made me think the next shot would be her body washing up, or her going down.

I'm glad it wasn't, tho.

Thanks Vonnie! Yes, I was looking forward to reading what your perspective would offer. Also, I am once again amazed at how articulate people (Vonnie) can be in a second language. I have found learning other languages fairly easy, but I don’t know how I would get beyond being barely literate. I have yet to imagine being able to express myself in more than the most basic terms.

I don’t know how they will follow through with the language challenges in this show, but I loved what they did in this past episode. The transition of Jin being one of two to all alone is fascinating. His decision to gather bamboo and join forces with his supposed enemy was a lovely bit of script.

How come we're so simpatico on classic movie viewing?

Oh, that. I used to sneak into the living room (after everyone fell asleep) to watch badly-dubbed late-night old movies on my parent's tiny black and white TV all the time. Like, since I was 6. The selection was somewhat broader once we came to NA. I had a very special relationship with the classic section of the local video store. And Elwy Yost from "Saturday Night at the Movies".

TV to the rescue!

Oh yeah. That first year was great. "Mom, I MUST watch more TV, to improve my English!"

Also, I am once again amazed at how articulate people (Vonnie) can be in a second language.

Seconded massively. Vonnie just joined Nilly in my pantheon of "buh-buh-buh....how can you DO that???!!!??!?!?!"

Said as someone who has totally failed when trying to learn a foreign language, I must add. I dropped French after less than a quarter of a quarter (despite the Franco-American ethnicity) and barely remembers rudimentary elements of Spanish despite six years (fucked up my GPA and Honors, it did - FUCKING LANGUAGE!!!!).

All I retained from 2 years of high school German was the "Nicht Verstehen" song and the fact that Patricia Smith's German cookie recipe could serve in a pinch if one developed an urgent need for concrete.

eta: heads up for the 8-page Matthew Fox fashion layout in the new GQ magazine.

I took 2 years of Spanish in highschool and another year in college and I can't remember much of anything. I got okay at reading it, but I never had much luck speaking or understanding it.

On the flipside, I can't read any written Japanese, but I know a handful of words and phrases from years of anime watching. Nothing that would be remotely useful, though, as things like "Prepare to launch" and "Die!" are only going to get you confused looks at best on the average day.

The basic music of the languages, Korean and Spanish are different. Spanish is a 'romance' language and all of them have the same roots. I can't speak Spanish, but after a couple of days in Mexico I can speak English with Spanish music and can be understood. I very much doubt I could learn the music of an Asian language that easily.

I learned enough Japanese from going to Samurai movies constantly a few years ago, and my mother made a Japanese/English dictionary about 50 years ago. For a while I could read the kanjii pretty well, but that has all slipped away.

I feel certain Jin has some English but is much too shy about it to use it. A bit of usage will perk him right up.

Sun, btw, will have learned to lie as easily as breathing from her father. She doesn't even have to realize it.

I flunked my year of Spanish in high school and my semester of French was mostly spent drawing maps of Paris.

but I lived in Heidelberg for a year and by the end of it I could get around on trains, order food and shop a little in German. I think living a language makes it easier to learn vs sitting in a classroom.