what i have a problem with is the binary whereby you do speak English (and speak it practically native) or you don't.

Actually, this would be a good entry for Gus' wiki. You know, the G.I. who took two years of high school German back in Cedar Rapids fools all of the Nazi officials because-- because he speaks German!

I think it's pretty clear that Jin doesn't want to speak English. So we have no idea how large his spoken vocabulary is.

Something I noticed with Arabic, is that when I knew a word, it was really easy to hear when someone said it. In French, which I actually speak passably, it took FOREVER to be able to recognise my vocabulary in the middle of strange words. Very irritating, but it meant that my reading was much better than my hearing.

I've never (obviously) been a native Korean speaker. I don't even know if my Arabic/French experience is more about me than about the differences between Quebec French and Moroccan Arabic.

However, if Jin knows a few English words, not necessarily useful ones, chooses to never speak them, and only sometimes recognises them when they're spoken to him ... well, don't we have the Jin on the show? In character and realistic?

His English is obviously not completely absent. He said "boat," once he decided he couldn't live in isolation with Sun, didn't he?

He said "boat," once he decided he couldn't live in isolation with Sun, didn't he?

Maybe the only English-language program available in his fishing village was Gilligan's Island. In which case he should also know "coconut" and "skipper."

Unlike how he is on the show, which is NO vocab, NO competence. I don't have a problem with his great difficulty in acquiring useable English

The one thing I'm curious about - they showed the yelling on the beach as gibberish, but it sounded like almost comprhensible gibberish (which was great), and it looked like Jin was really concentrating.

I wonder - if you had some rudimentary, get-by-while-travelling English, wouldn't that (i.e. the gibberish) be how an unfamiliar languge would sound? It's how Spanish sounds to me (I took 4 years in high school and 2 years in college, but am really bad with languages) - like I ALMOST understand, but can't quite make it out because it's too fast/too much cross-talk. Although that leaves the problem of why Jin would keep it from everyone on the island, and from Sun before that.

I can fanwank a few reasons why he would do that, but even after his backstory, the writers haven't SHOWN me why.

But though Sun might, possibly, have had English lessons at some point (daddy's idea of a statement of status), Jin was obviously from a poor family. So the chances of him having had language instruction when he was young are slim.

Jin was obviously from a poor family. So the chances of him having had language instruction when he was young are slim.

Except for the crappy English classes that he got every year in school.

This conversation reminds me that my first German teacher was a native Korean Speaker (Herr Chung). The resulting accent caused some raised eyebrows when I tried to speak to actual Germans.

Except for the crappy English classes that he got every year in school.

Is it clear that these classes have been in place long enough for a 37 year old to have had them?

However, I think if TPTB want Jin to have learnt no English, he learnt no English. It's their call.

But wouldn't Jin be too old to have had English in school? I got the impression that in-school English classes were fairly new.

However, I think if TPTB want Jin to have learnt no English, he learnt no English. It's their call.

I worry that ita has fallen under the thrall of TPTB. Or the Pretty. Who will be our Champion?

This is how people get through an episode of Alias without laughing derisively at the plot, right?

At the end, did anyone else get a vibe of Sun walking into the ocean and not coming back out?

It felt like a freedom vibe to me. Then again that doesn't preclude her not coming back out, just a different kind of freedom.

I am without knowledge of how likely or unlikely an educated Korean of Jin and Sun's age would know English. I'll buy what the writers present. The isolation of Jin tore me up. The lack of communication between the couples reminded me of a daytime soap, but with better acting and scenery.

My childhood was spent with Italian and Polish speaking grandparents in many friends homes. I picked up many phrases, long since forgotten, and never had any doubt what they were saying when yelling at us. In recent years I am surrounded by Spanish speaking people and have absorbed a few things. Language is fairly easy for me though.