My experience with Spaniards -- who mostly receive English instruction from about the 8th grade, and it seems to be always crappy instruction -- is that, when they are 30 and meet Americans, the only English they can come up with is "Star Wars. Que quieren decir los yedi? Es algo japones, no?"

I'm confused, because I'm guessing we're to assume that your Spaniard's crappy lessons are better than Jin and Sun's no lessons, which leaves them both quite un-fluent, and supports Jessica and me.

If Sun went through twelve years of English instruction in the schools and learned absolutely nothing, then took a few months of private instruction and became spectacularly fluent, this is a great advertisment for the private instructions. They must be as magical as those audio tapes you see advertised in the back of magazines.

Of course, for Jin, not speaking English does add a bit of dramatic tension and obviously character conflict. Something that makes a drama with lots of character conflict really watchable.

For you DDK fans, Wed's Daily Star article.

If Sun went through twelve years of English instruction in the schools and learned absolutely nothing, then took a few months of private instruction and became spectacularly fluent, this is a great advertisment for the private instructions.

And if she didn't go through 12 years of instruction -- still a great ad. However you cut it, I wish that person had been around to teach me Japanese.

I'm confused, because I'm guessing we're to assume that your Spaniard's crappy lessons are better than Jin and Sun's no lessons, which leaves them both quite un-fluent, and supports Jessica and me.

My point was, this particular fellow had a number of English words to offer (and all sorts of amusing observations, like the fact that I do not pronounce the T in 'forty' as his UK-English instructors did), and a wide exposure to English language and American culture, but that poor schooling in youth meant his English wasn't as good as he'd thought it was.

I'll be happy if Sun's English is messy and broken. (In this modern age, I've even seen it done in a way that isn't insulting!) I think that's what her English should be, considering what we know of her. That middle ground, between Perfect and Helpless, is what I want to see more of.

I'm confused on your point on Jin, then. If these Spaniards (that would just feels weird) with English classes had crap-assed English, you're assuming Jin had studied, and should have retained some, or that he had no instruction, but should still have usable English?

Spaniards with crappy instruction: bad English grammar, middling vocab, large cultural competence.

Korean Jin with no instruction: my prediction: no English grammar, small vocab, small cultural competence.

Unlike how he is on the show, which is NO vocab, NO competence. I don't have a problem with his great difficulty in acquiring useable English; what i have a problem with is the binary whereby you do speak English (and speak it practically native) or you don't. Both the Spaniard above and Sun & Jin should fall into some middling place, where the English is not perfect, but not completely absent either.

what i have a problem with is the binary whereby you do speak English (and speak it practically native) or you don't.

Actually, this would be a good entry for Gus' wiki. You know, the G.I. who took two years of high school German back in Cedar Rapids fools all of the Nazi officials because-- because he speaks German!

I think it's pretty clear that Jin doesn't want to speak English. So we have no idea how large his spoken vocabulary is.

Something I noticed with Arabic, is that when I knew a word, it was really easy to hear when someone said it. In French, which I actually speak passably, it took FOREVER to be able to recognise my vocabulary in the middle of strange words. Very irritating, but it meant that my reading was much better than my hearing.

I've never (obviously) been a native Korean speaker. I don't even know if my Arabic/French experience is more about me than about the differences between Quebec French and Moroccan Arabic.

However, if Jin knows a few English words, not necessarily useful ones, chooses to never speak them, and only sometimes recognises them when they're spoken to him ... well, don't we have the Jin on the show? In character and realistic?

His English is obviously not completely absent. He said "boat," once he decided he couldn't live in isolation with Sun, didn't he?

He said "boat," once he decided he couldn't live in isolation with Sun, didn't he?

Maybe the only English-language program available in his fishing village was Gilligan's Island. In which case he should also know "coconut" and "skipper."