I think if Jack could have worked out a way to get everyone to go to the caves, he'd have used it. Because he thinks they'd be better off that way.

Yes, but would he have drugged or tricked them or used them as bait to do it? I don't think so. He didn't even say 'I'll only treat people who live in the caves'; in fact, he walks down to the beach to treat people, he doesn't even make them come to the caves much less live there.

IMO, Locke is the Mayor of Crazytown, Emperor of Crazyonia, and also his side is bad.

Seconding JZ's insistence that the ones who hit and tie up their community members without a good excuse are badder than the ones who have a (rather stupid) reason. Also, I am inclined to think that having an agenda that may interfere with a survival situation (i.e., intentionally causing rifts in the community), prima facie, means evil or deeply fucked or both.

I mean, this is television, but generally speaking pursuing an agenda without informing the people on whom you are pursuing it is a good way to get (a) yelled at (b) run outta town (c) killed and eaten or (d) a civil war started. If Locke is a good guy, why isn't he telling people about his agenda? Because it is an evil agenda that people will hear about and be like, "Dude? You're evil. Get outta town."

Re: the compass Either there just is that much magnetic variation (that is, they're not where they think they are), or (as Sayid appears to think) Locke gave him a screwed up compass on purpose, or there is something of significant magnetic whosits on the island that would throw the readings off. What sort of power generation (ie, such as that necessary to run Rousseau's chamber of music, torture and twisted love) would generate significantly disruptive magnetic fields?

If they're not where they think they are or they're that far off of magnetic north, then the compass still works. You just compensate for the variation, and you can still use it. But if there is magnetic whosits going on, all bets are off as to the compass working consistently.

I've done a very tiny amount of dead reckoning sailing (i.e. navigating by map and compass with no landmarks), and it's amazing how small a magnetic whosits can mess up a compass at close range. We sailed over a spot where someone had junked a car many years before, and the needle went zoom off one way and came back once we'd passed. Not an active magnet, that -- just a big block of rusted steel under the hull, and the compass was momentarily useless.

So, big Black Rock of Plot Significance -- definitely has potential.

He didn't even say 'I'll only treat people who live in the caves';

Well, Locke wants everyone to follow his way, but he feeds everyone. I think the main difference in how far acceptable means go -- he did, after all, think torture was a reasonable idea. So he's not above a little persuasion.

(who was used as bait?)

sits in sane, sensible corner with Nutty

I mean, it's not like I don't love Locke. I do love him. He's stirring shit up and rearranging the bonds and alliances between the others to suit his own agenda and just generally being a big juicy crazy plot device who's also being splendidly well acted. Locke the character and plot element I am totally down with. Locke the person I might possibly trust or whose agenda might not be as bad as some narrowminded folks are saying, nuh and uh.

Hec and I had a mild argument about the comparative dangerousness of people like Locke vs. people like Kate, and he argued circles around me but I still stubbornly feel I was right, just incompetent to explain my rightness.

If I were on that island, I'd totally trust Kate far, far more and feel far, far safer spending time with her than with Locke. Kate is clearly a lying liar who lies like most people breathe, and has a messed-up past with lots of secrets she's not particularly interested in sharing; but she also seems essentially sane, and her outbursts and lies and violence have so far all been directed at guarding her secrets and treasures. People like Hurley and Charlie and Sun seem to get along just fine with her; they don't push and probe, they're focused on the present or the task at hand or on sharing their own pasts without demanding something from her in return, and they're all doing fine.

Her agenda is all about protecting her secrets. Respect that and you're golden -- hell, blunder by accident on a sore spot, and she still seems essentially a rational enough person to make a warning noise and give you a chance to back off before flipping out like a mammal.

Locke's agenda is known to Locke alone. Interact with him and you're either playing into it or thwarting it all unawares (in fact, if it turns out that he was the one who clocked Sayid, you can be going about what you believe to be totally neutral business entirely unconnected to him and still thwart him and bring a thumping upon yourself without having any idea how or why). His agenda is both so purely internal and so vastly big-picture that there's no guaranteed safe way to guard against it or even make an informed choice to assent to it.

Possibly it's just an individual personality thing, and I'm certainly happy to have him confined in the little box working his fucked-up mojo on the other little box people, but if it was all real and I'd had the bad luck to end up on that plane and survive the crash, I'd trust practically anyone (possibly including Sawyer) before Locke.

I just don't see Kate as useful. Sure, I'd rather have coffee with her than Locke, but I wouldn't follow her, not now.

JZ, all metaphor-like, I am in agreeance with you. Kate, although untruthful, is not hiding anything that directly affects my survival; Locke probably is.

Locke is like a gigantic monster truck, and were I on the island I would want him far away from me so he can't perform mayhem on me.

Kate is like a racing motorcycle, twisty and fast and flexible, and you could just tuck yourself in behind her in an air pocket and smoove yourself into coconut telephone paradise.

Which makes Sawyer is a giant Catherine-wheel-encrusted parade float, covered with towers and uncomfortable children and awkward spires that catch on the power lines or break off in the middle of main street.

I just don't see Kate as useful. Sure, I'd rather have coffee with her than Locke, but I wouldn't follow her, not now.

I wouldn't follow her either, but I'd feel relatively safe in her company -- not necessarily safe from the invisamechasaur or the polar bears or whatnot, but at least safe from her. She did bad things, she doesn't want to talk about them; fine, I won't ask, it's all good.

(eta: Or, what Nutty said)

I not only wouldn't follow Locke but I wouldn't even want to be around him; I'd feel safer from the rest of the island's badness with him, but far less safe from him. Though, irrationally, not much safer from him at any distance either.

And Locke's been helpful in the past, but he's spent almost a week going out on fake hunts that actually consist entirely of hatch-gazing. Whatever else he's doing, he's not feeding anyone now (except possibly himself).

Rather, I don't see Kate as interesting. I'm interested in Locke, and all his crazy. What I really like about the character is how we all were led to completely disregard him from day one as Crazy Orange Smile Guy. His reaction to the crash seemed completely incompatible, so he must be crazy. But later, we learned where he was on his personal meter, and his reaction of joy and discovery was completely practical and personal.

Not that I think his role as Sharp Edged Weapon Distributor and Keeper of the Hallucinopaste is a particularly benevolent or necessarily positive, but I'm guessing it is practical and rational. If, you know, only for him.

However, bear in mind that, as my SO says, I want everyone to be evil (eta: you know, on television. Fictional television.), so my liking Locke prolly has some taint to it.

Well, not evil so much. Just to have depth. And usually with that depth comes a certain degree of moral ambiguity, 'cause that's how life is.

Rather, I don't see Kate as interesting.

I do agree. Should we do coffee, I'd do all the talking. Still, it would be safer than brunching with Locke.

I think many people on the island might disagree with what his idea of "right" is, should he ever share it. But I do think he's less selfish than a Boone or a Sawyer, and less dithery than a Jack.

Jin and Michael. I'd stick to them. Not Kate, no point.