You know, my big sister could really beat the crap out of her. I mean, really really.

Dawn ,'Storyteller'


The Buffista Book Club: the Harry Potter iteration  

This thread is a focused discussion group. Please see the first post below for the current topic and upcoming book discussions. While natter will inevitably happen, we encourage you to treat this like a virtual book club and try to keep your posts in that spirit.

By consensus, this thread is reopened specifically to discuss Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. It will be closed again once that discussion has run its course.

***SPOILER ALERT***

  • **Spoilers for Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows lie here. Read at your own risk***


victor infante - Oct 25, 2007 6:39:18 am PDT #3286 of 3301
To understand what happened at the diner, we shall use Mr. Papaya! This is upsetting because he's the friendliest of fruits.

I think there's a fundamental difference between using traits that stereotypically are assigned to one group, as JKR did with the Goblins and the Jews, but with very little textual evidence that it's meant to be an allegory, and what Lucas did with Jar Jar Binks, which almost directly referenced a series of bad racial stereotypes.

Certainly, you can look at JKR's Goblins and say "Wow. That's meant to be Jews," and make a pretty good case for it, but it doesn't seem to be intentional and you can probably make a case the other way, too. There's no way you can look at Jar Jar and see something other than a race relations timebomb waiting to happen. (Naturally, the kids loved him.)


Connie Neil - Oct 25, 2007 7:09:49 am PDT #3287 of 3301
brillig

the Not!Jew who owned Anakin & his mother

Huh. I always thought Greek for some reason. But then I never see the parallels that other people say are obvious.


Typo Boy - Oct 25, 2007 7:18:06 am PDT #3288 of 3301
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

I never thought it was intentional. (I don't even think the Lucas example was intentional.)


Gudanov - Oct 25, 2007 8:48:36 am PDT #3289 of 3301
Coding and Sleeping

Potterverse Goblins just made me think of generic fantasyverse Dwarves. Perhaps a side effect of having read a lot more fantasy than history.


beth b - Oct 25, 2007 7:01:47 pm PDT #3290 of 3301
oh joy! Oh Rapture ! I have a brain!

Potterverse Goblins just made me think of generic fantasyverse Dwarves.

That's it. Goblins in most fantasy books that I have read are barely sentient beings. I was thinking that they were really smart for goblins. But you are right, they are like Dwarves.


Fay - Oct 25, 2007 9:47:56 pm PDT #3291 of 3301
"Fuck Western ideologically-motivated gender identification!" Sulu gasped, and came.

I found it fascinating to read people's reactions to realising the protagonists of Neil Gaiman's Anansi Boys were black.

Ah, crap. Wish I could remember this; I may have just been expecting them to be black, because - Anansi. Seems like a fair assumption. But when other characters' skin tone is referenced, then you tend to assume the person doing the noticing doesn't belong to that group - so when it's mentioned that some bloke is white, then you assume the noticer isn't. Or whatever. Huh. Regardless, I definitely don't remember any moment of OMGWTFSkinTone!!!

GC, I just want to say that I'm sorry if I helped to make you feel piled-on. (In that non-porny way.) And ditto to Megan.

wrt the Pureblood/Mudblood/Halfblood thing - I'm a bit divided on whether I see this as racial. I mean, I kind of do, because - duh. But also it really pings me as a class thing. Which may be partly because the purebloods tend to have Latinate names.

wrt heteronormativity - I really don't think Rowling was trying to create a non-heteronormative world. If she was, she sure as shit failed abysmally. imho.

Ellen Kushner's Riverside - nonheteronormative. Cap'n Jack's Cardiff Torchwood - nonheteronormative. Tanya Huff's Quarters Books - nonheteronormative (and default spearcarrier-types are generally women). Otherwise, most every book, movie or show I can think of is heteronormative. Including QAF.

Yeah, it would have rocked my socks if she'd had Neville or Luna or Ginny or Ron or somebody turn out to be gay. Because, yes, she did a pretty good job of including most flavours of kids in there, without hitting you over the head with their ethnicity - would have been good, as romance and naughty thoughts start impinging on them all, if this had included some same-sex pairings. (Neville/Draco - ah, that would have been nice. Or Seamus/Dean - could've bought that. Or Oliver Wood/Percy. Aw! Oliver Wood could have helped give Percy a kick up the ass and get him to come and reunite with the family! That would have been lovely and apposite.)

On a vaguely related note, I just read Robin McKinley's DragonHaven, in which the grumpy Snape-like bloke turns out to be gay, and chills the fuck out a lot when he actually gets a boyfriend, and that made me beam.


Ouise - Oct 26, 2007 7:16:15 am PDT #3292 of 3301
Socks are a running theme throughout the series. They are used as symbols of freedom, redemption and love.

Fay, thank you for mentioning Dragonhaven! I had no idea that McKinley had a new book out. Very exciting.


Fay - Oct 26, 2007 7:56:05 am PDT #3293 of 3301
"Fuck Western ideologically-motivated gender identification!" Sulu gasped, and came.

She also has a Livejournal these days!


Ouise - Oct 26, 2007 8:18:52 am PDT #3294 of 3301
Socks are a running theme throughout the series. They are used as symbols of freedom, redemption and love.

She also has a Livejournal these days!

Really? *bustles off to look her up*


§ ita § - Oct 26, 2007 5:34:42 pm PDT #3295 of 3301
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

But when other characters' skin tone is referenced, then you tend to assume the person doing the noticing doesn't belong to that group - so when it's mentioned that some bloke is white, then you assume the noticer isn't.

It just dawned on me, but no. I notice when people are black just the same as I notice when people are white. Perhaps if I were coming from a luxurious position of dominance I wouldn't have to care and could just assume. But I notice, and I know other people notice, just the way every black guy on my floor at work introduced himself to me within my first week or so there.

I'd wager good money they didn't do that to white hires.

There's often a shared moment as you pass a strange black person in the street that is so commonplace it almost makes me laugh.