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'Serenity'


The Buffista Book Club: the Harry Potter iteration  

This thread is a focused discussion group. Please see the first post below for the current topic and upcoming book discussions. While natter will inevitably happen, we encourage you to treat this like a virtual book club and try to keep your posts in that spirit.

By consensus, this thread is reopened specifically to discuss Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. It will be closed again once that discussion has run its course.

***SPOILER ALERT***

  • **Spoilers for Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows lie here. Read at your own risk***


Stephanie - Oct 22, 2007 3:04:21 pm PDT #3145 of 3301
Trust my rage

I think JKR could have mentioned something wrt Grindlewald and why his ideas were so appealing to Dumbledore. Something along the lines of "I was blinded by love for a time."


§ ita § - Oct 22, 2007 3:47:20 pm PDT #3146 of 3301
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

If Dumbledore's love for Grindlewald was a notable component of his feelings for Grind's positions, then it should have come up. If it was "just another thing" then it falls into mood-setting for me. Since I think the story works very plausibly without thinking out of the platonic box, I don't think she did her story any damage by leaving it out.

Above that, though, what is her responsibility?


Laga - Oct 22, 2007 3:53:16 pm PDT #3147 of 3301
You should know I'm a big deal in the Resistance.

I think it's consistent with Dumbledore's character not to talk about his feelings.


Kate P. - Oct 22, 2007 4:40:03 pm PDT #3148 of 3301
That's the pain / That cuts a straight line down through the heart / We call it love

I do find it interesting that "sexuality" comes into play when you mention teh gays, but no one thinks it overtly sexual to mention Harry's crush on Cho, or Hermione's on Ron.

What GC said.

I think JKR could have mentioned something wrt Grindlewald and why his ideas were so appealing to Dumbledore. Something along the lines of "I was blinded by love for a time."

Yes, exactly. And, not to sound like a broken record, but I think if the situation had been Dumbledore and a woman, she *would* have said something about his feelings.

Above that, though, what is her responsibility?

ita, I don't think she had a responsibility to write gay characters. I'm pretty sure most writers don't have a responsibility to write gay characters. But I can still be disappointed when they choose not to.


§ ita § - Oct 22, 2007 5:27:28 pm PDT #3149 of 3301
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Kate, please don't think I'm attacking you or telling you not to have your point of view.


Glamcookie - Oct 22, 2007 5:28:40 pm PDT #3150 of 3301
I know my own heart and understand my fellow man. But I am made unlike anyone I have ever met. I dare to say I am like no one in the whole world. - Anne Lister

I'm pretty sure most writers don't have a responsibility to write gay characters. But I can still be disappointed when they choose not to.

Especially in light of this "reveal." It's almost worse in a way because I would have assumed it just never crossed her mind as a hetero woman to include a gay character. Now we find that yes indeed it crossed her mind but she chose not to include it.


victor infante - Oct 22, 2007 5:34:03 pm PDT #3151 of 3301
To understand what happened at the diner, we shall use Mr. Papaya! This is upsetting because he's the friendliest of fruits.

Neil Gaiman weighs in on Dumbledore's sex life and pretty much nails my opinion in one:

You always wind up knowing more about your characters than you can get onto the page. Pages are finite, and the story isn't about giving you all the information about everyone in it any more than life is. Things the author knows about characters (or at least, strongly suspects -- it's never really real until it hits the page, because the process of writing is also a process of discovery) that don't make it onto the page could include the characters' backstory, what they like to eat, the toothpaste they use, what happens to them after the story is over or before it began, and what they do in bed. That something didn't turn up in the books just means it didn't make it onto the page or wasn't relevant to the story. (Or even, it made it in and the author cut that scene out because it didn't work. One of my favourite scenes in Anansi Boys went because it made the chapter work better when it was gone.)


Kate P. - Oct 22, 2007 5:36:05 pm PDT #3152 of 3301
That's the pain / That cuts a straight line down through the heart / We call it love

Kate, please don't think I'm attacking you or telling you not to have your point of view.

I definitely don't think that! I'm sorry that it came across that way. I'm glad that GC has joined the debate, though, so I'm not the only one on my side. :-)


Glamcookie - Oct 22, 2007 5:37:38 pm PDT #3153 of 3301
I know my own heart and understand my fellow man. But I am made unlike anyone I have ever met. I dare to say I am like no one in the whole world. - Anne Lister

I think JKR could have mentioned something wrt Grindlewald and why his ideas were so appealing to Dumbledore. Something along the lines of "I was blinded by love for a time."

Exactly. I'm not saying there needed to be a love scene or anything, but a clear position on the matter would have been nice and taken no more than what Stephanie has posted here.

Don't get me wrong, I still love the series, I'm just irked by this issue now that JKR has raised it.


§ ita § - Oct 22, 2007 5:38:12 pm PDT #3154 of 3301
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

It's almost worse in a way because I would have assumed it just never crossed her mind as a hetero woman to include a gay character

I would think it might cross her mind to have someone gay, and then decide it's not worth the bother--is that the sort of thing you're docking points for? Seeing the 'fight' and deciding not to engage?

I found it fascinating to read people's reactions to realising the protagonists of Neil Gaiman's Anansi Boys were black. I don't give Gaiman any points for it, though, since they didn't feel very Jamaican (to me the reveal was of the nationality--once I got that far I didn't pay much more attention, but it certainly didn't ensure their race) because it was just something he said, and some dishes he named.

Which is to say--would it have been enough for JKR to say a) Dumbledore was gay and b) Dumbledore was in love with a very bad man, or would she have had to go farther to do the whole thing either convincingly or responsibly (as furthering her message of tolerance)?

eta: Total crosspost with Victor