Xander: We just saw the zebras mating! Thank you, very exciting... Willow: It was like the Heimlich, with stripes!

'Him'


The Buffista Book Club: the Harry Potter iteration  

This thread is a focused discussion group. Please see the first post below for the current topic and upcoming book discussions. While natter will inevitably happen, we encourage you to treat this like a virtual book club and try to keep your posts in that spirit.

By consensus, this thread is reopened specifically to discuss Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. It will be closed again once that discussion has run its course.

***SPOILER ALERT***

  • **Spoilers for Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows lie here. Read at your own risk***


Glamcookie - Oct 22, 2007 5:37:38 pm PDT #3153 of 3301
I know my own heart and understand my fellow man. But I am made unlike anyone I have ever met. I dare to say I am like no one in the whole world. - Anne Lister

I think JKR could have mentioned something wrt Grindlewald and why his ideas were so appealing to Dumbledore. Something along the lines of "I was blinded by love for a time."

Exactly. I'm not saying there needed to be a love scene or anything, but a clear position on the matter would have been nice and taken no more than what Stephanie has posted here.

Don't get me wrong, I still love the series, I'm just irked by this issue now that JKR has raised it.


§ ita § - Oct 22, 2007 5:38:12 pm PDT #3154 of 3301
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

It's almost worse in a way because I would have assumed it just never crossed her mind as a hetero woman to include a gay character

I would think it might cross her mind to have someone gay, and then decide it's not worth the bother--is that the sort of thing you're docking points for? Seeing the 'fight' and deciding not to engage?

I found it fascinating to read people's reactions to realising the protagonists of Neil Gaiman's Anansi Boys were black. I don't give Gaiman any points for it, though, since they didn't feel very Jamaican (to me the reveal was of the nationality--once I got that far I didn't pay much more attention, but it certainly didn't ensure their race) because it was just something he said, and some dishes he named.

Which is to say--would it have been enough for JKR to say a) Dumbledore was gay and b) Dumbledore was in love with a very bad man, or would she have had to go farther to do the whole thing either convincingly or responsibly (as furthering her message of tolerance)?

eta: Total crosspost with Victor


Glamcookie - Oct 22, 2007 5:43:35 pm PDT #3155 of 3301
I know my own heart and understand my fellow man. But I am made unlike anyone I have ever met. I dare to say I am like no one in the whole world. - Anne Lister

I would think it might cross her mind to have someone gay, and then decide it's not worth the bother

But it appears to be worth it to her now that the series is safely wrapped.

is that the sort of thing you're docking points for?

I'm not sure it's fair to act like I'm judging when I'm reacting to something that she herself has brought to light. I've never come in and been like, "Hey, it's bullshit that there are no gays in the Potter series!" That would be "docking points" (though I still think it's fair to notice the absence of such a character).


victor infante - Oct 22, 2007 5:48:07 pm PDT #3156 of 3301
To understand what happened at the diner, we shall use Mr. Papaya! This is upsetting because he's the friendliest of fruits.

"I was blinded by love for a time."

Which, to be fair, is somehow less evocative, smaller even, than "You cannot imagine how his ideas caught me, Harry, inflamed me.'"

Because the gay revelation changes nothing about the character. There's not a code going on here. ... not really, anyway. I very much do believe that it was Grindelwald's ideas and intellect that Dumbledore was attracted to, that was the crux of their relationship, whether it be romantic or platonic.

Err ... and then Dumbledore mastered his wand.


§ ita § - Oct 22, 2007 5:48:49 pm PDT #3157 of 3301
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

I was using docking points to denote disappointment, and apologise if it came off as painting you as more highhanded. If truth be told, I was thinking house points, so entirely twee.

it appears to be worth it to her now that the series is safely wrapped

She's never been in a position to reveal this much of the scenery, though. Now we can ask her anything--it's not like she called a press conference on his sexuality.

I wonder if she'll write anything different. People are going to want to suck her dry on this 'verse for a very long time.


Glamcookie - Oct 22, 2007 5:52:06 pm PDT #3158 of 3301
I know my own heart and understand my fellow man. But I am made unlike anyone I have ever met. I dare to say I am like no one in the whole world. - Anne Lister

I hear what you're saying, victor. I guess since straight love is all over the place, it'd be nice to have a concrete statement of gay love in just a few places, you know? She doesn't have a responsibility to raise gay issues but if she's gonna do it, would it have killed her to just do it in the text where it would have been really meaningful to a whole lot of people?


Laga - Oct 22, 2007 6:13:22 pm PDT #3159 of 3301
You should know I'm a big deal in the Resistance.

I think that if you'd like to live in a world where sexuality doesn't matter it's quite fair to not make a point about the sexuality of your characters.

I also don't believe Dumbledore would have revealed his love for Grindlewald to Harry had Grindlewald been a woman. To me, Dumbledore is just not a guy who talks about his personal feelings.


beth b - Oct 22, 2007 7:32:59 pm PDT #3160 of 3301
oh joy! Oh Rapture ! I have a brain!

I also don't believe Dumbledore would have revealed his love for Grindlewald to Harry had Grindlewald been a woman. To me, Dumbledore is just not a guy who talks about his personal feelings.

esp to those he is teaching /leading / training. In a number of cases Harry has to come to decisions based on what he knows about Dumbledore. I'm not sure how Dumbledore felt was relevant to Harry.

I would have prefered JKR didn't say anything - but mostly because if it isn't in the book , it doesn't feel real to me.

and, I think I am repeating myself, but to the story , I don't think it matters if the adolescent thrall is intellectual or sexual. In real life, it happens. and I thought it was well done.


Trudy Booth - Oct 22, 2007 7:48:19 pm PDT #3161 of 3301
Greece's financial crisis threatens to take down all of Western civilization - a civilization they themselves founded. A rather tragic irony - which is something they also invented. - Jon Stewart

I think that if you'd like to live in a world where sexuality doesn't matter it's quite fair to not make a point about the sexuality of your characters.

That's been my take on it.


Jon B. - Oct 23, 2007 3:31:16 am PDT #3162 of 3301
A turkey in every toilet -- only in America!

But it appears to be worth it to her now that the series is safely wrapped.

Reiterating what ita said a few posts up. Had JKR ever been asked about Dumbledore's love life previously? If so, did she dodge the question? Unless the answer to both these questions is "yes", I don't think your statement is fair.