I never saw BHD, unfortunately.

Hurray for Hayden's hate-on.

(Zoidberg) Hurray! (/Z)

Consider something like HBO's Deadwood in contrast to Stone. Both are attempting to convey the same sort of Hobbesian "people are shitty to each other" message, both are interested in presenting their stories as a form of revisionist history, and both are focused on macho, powerful men. But Deadwood manages to do all this with a sense of subtlety and nuanced presentation (not to mention a healthy appreciation for women) that should leave Stone cowering under his bed. There's plenty of other tough-guy directors who've managed to balance out their macho issues with some real emotion (I used Deadwood because its creator is a right-wing, law-and-order tough guy like Stone). It just kills me that Stone, who is completely in thrall to his own macho self-image, can a) make movies in the first place and b) receive acclaim for his hackery. But I'll shut up now, because I'm ranting.

To use another war example, it's the way the French ship was treated in "Master & Commander." We barely see it, or we see it from far away, which is how our sailors see it. There are no scenes to show us the humanity or the indiviuality of the French--they get less screen time than Somali civilians. I don't think the film is saying the French sailors are less human than Aubrey's crew, just that they are the Enemy and the Unknown...to them.

(I used Deadwood because its creator is a right-wing, law-and-order tough guy like Stone)

Didn't Stone make the movie Salvador? I always thought he was a militant lefty.

(thank god for Robin)

I don't actually need to see a contrast to believe it's a limited POV, and I don't believe that mere presentation is endorsement.

Ah, see, you and I are opposites on these two principles. Presentation without conflict is the very definition of endorsement, in my mind; and unless the director wants me to call him "limited", I need clear markers of when the limited POV is in use and when it is not.

Didn't Stone make the movie Salvador? I always thought he was a militant lefty.

Yeah, it occured to me that he may vote left -- I really don't know -- but his view of the world, as reflected through his movies, seems reactionary. Maybe he's a Stalinist.

I need clear markers of when the limited POV is in use and when it is not.

So you can't deal with an entire film in a limited POV? Or, let me not say limited -- a POV that's not shared by the creators?

I noticed people having this difficulty with songs (and I kinda got it -- I did tend to assume that a singer actually means their lyrics, unless it's "Cold Ethyl" and hideously obvious), but it's never struck me that way with either movies or books. TV, yes, I need to see, if we're dealing with a series. There's only so much alter-POV I can take.

Speaking in general, I think movies can be based on a limited POV, just like any other narrative artwork, but the director needs to be clear that this is what's taking place if he or she wants to differentiate from an omniscient POV. Not that it has to be Rashomon, but the clues have to be there. I haven't seen Black Hawk Down, so I can't comment in the specific, but the director's cut of Blade Runner had a lovely claustrophobic (yet blank) focus on Harrison Ford's character that seemed an even more limited POV when contrasted with the version with the voice-over. Gladiator, on the other hand, had those jumpy sections that might have been intended to put the audience into Russell Crowe's POV, but it failed miserably if that was the aim.

the way the French ship was treated in "Master & Commander." We barely see it, or we see it from far away, which is how our sailors see it.

I think I see. Although, I think there is a differing code involved between the two examples -- for one thing, nobody takes M&C seriously as history, although it has certain truthful historical flourishes.

(Also, the French ship is also about 80% maguffin, isn't it? The Frenchness of the ship is immaterial to the plot (so much so that in the book it was American); indeed, for a long time in the middle, the ship is totally irrelevant -- storm, nature walks, trade, social conflict on-ship, jokes about weevils.)

With the whole film coded as adventure rather than history, portraying the enemy as other is just part of the genre, and invisible as a choice. And doesn't matter, because we know that we're not seeing real Frenchmen, but fantasy-Frenchmen, or anybody. Who they are really doesn't matter, because it's an adventure film.

Whereas, when the film is coded as history, failure to make explicit what is viewpoint and what is fact is visible and wrong-looking. If the BHD was an editorial, then I just disagree with it; but if it was history, and it seemed like that was what it wanted to be, then it was kind of crappy history. If it was an adventure movie, than I have even less respect for it than I had an hour ago.

I think movies can be based on a limited POV, just like any other narrative artwork, but the director needs to be clear that this is what's taking place if he or she wants to differentiate from an omniscient POV.

The obvious example is The Usual Suspects and you don't realize that you have an unreliable narrator until the very end.